27 replies to this topic

[mizz.short]

hi there,

 

I've started researching raw diets for dogs a couple months ago. I have a 6 year old great dane x german shepherd (Hunter) and a 5 year old pomeranian (Nina). Hunter is showing signs of muscle lose in his back end and he developed a limp about 6 months ago. He has no trouble eating, sleeping, playing, etc he just has a very sad looking rear end. He's been on liquid glucosamine for the last 3 years for this exact reason. He's also been fed grain free kibble his whole life (Core Wellness). His partner in crime Nina has no issues except eating frozen poop out of the yard while no one is watching.

 

I would like is to switch them both to raw. i don't expect the dane to have a miracle story and to do a complete 180, but i would like to give it a try.

 

 - From what i understand ( because there are so many different resources on the internet) they will need to fast 24hrs before we start the raw diet, how important is this step? 

 - I've also read to give meat bone-in like chicken thighs or beef ribs, is there something I should be giving to the 9lbs dog that I shouldn't give to the 110lbs dog and visa vera.

 - I've read I should give about 3% of their weight to maintain their weight, should I give Hunter a little more as he has lost weight over the years?

 - if I'm feeding him 3.3lbs of raw food, is that just bone-in meat to start? will they need some veggies and grains/starchy veggies?

 - how many meals a day should I give them, 1,2,3?

 

I've done the math and graphed what one site said their diet should look like which included 20% boneless meat, 25% grains/starchy veg, 2.5% liver, 2.5% fish, 50% raw meaty bone does anyone agree with this or is there another method thats working for your large breed dog and has the ability to sustain a toy breed as well?

 

If there is anything I am missing please let me know! if there is an easier way to do something please let me know! I am open to all feed back and would love to hear about your pets 

 

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[naturalfeddogs]

Welcome! Congrats on deciding to go with raw! Nina may stop eating poop once she has gotten going on raw. Sometimes it's nutritional, and raw will help with that. All of mine stopped poop eating when they went to raw, and the ones I have now have never even showed interest in poop. 

 

Fasting is a good idea before starting raw, to be sure all kibble residue (or as much as possible) is out of the system. The two digest at different rates and can cause digestive issues.

 

You will start with bone in chicken, like backs or quarters. Beef bones are usually too dense for most dogs to get through, and you risk chipped or broken teeth. But you won't introduce beef at all for several weeks anyway. 

 

No veggies needed. Dogs aren't designed to be able to digest them very well, and what little they do get out of them isn't anything that isn't already in raw meat/bones/organs, in a much more usable digestable form.

 

I have never done any math feeding mine. I just feed according to the dogs weight. Looking too thin, increase. Too heavy, decrease. It's easy to overthink it all and make it more difficult than it needs to be. But, thats just me. If it works better for you to weigh everything out, then go ahead. Nothing wrong with that. 

 

The average rule, is 80-10-10. 80% meat, 10%bone and 10% organs. Nothing more. But keep in mind, that is only a guideline. Some need more, some less of each. The only supplement you will probably need to give is fish oil. Other than that, nothing more.

[Jordann]

Welcome!

This is a very helpful page to read http://preymodelraw....el-raw-diet-r19

Nina can have chicken necks, but Hunter probably shouldn't. My 70 ish pound dogs chomp the necks once and swallow them. They aren't gulpers, though and I am more than comfortable trusting them.

It sounds like you have found advice for different types of feeding (BARF and PMR). My advice is to find one that works for Hunter and Nina and find one or two places to read, so you don't find conflicting information. Jenny (naturalfeddogs) and Natalie (Prey Model Raw) had more than enough information and answered my questions tirelessly. This was the best support/information group I came across, so I stuck with them.

Don't focus too heavily on ratios, they are guidelines. The great thing about PMR is you can balance things out over time. My boys get boneless meals one or two days in a row, then they get some bone-in food the next day. I also do my organ meals once a week but my boys are able to handle their organs all at once. Some dogs need a little bit of organ every day. You will learn what works for your dogs as you progress.

Please keep us updated on your progress!

[mizz.short]

thanks for your input, 

 

do you feed the chicken frozen or thawed?

[Jordann]

You can feed however will work for your kids. When I started, I fed thawed, but my hound didn't like the texture of the thawed chicken, but when I offered it to him frozen he was all for it. Frozen can get your dog to try something they wouldn't normally eat thawed. A few dogs will only eat liver frozen SOLID.

I don't mean to sound so vague, but it really depends on what your pups like.

[mizz.short]

so today is the first day of raw and he eat this morning just fine, I fed him the rest of his meal around 7, and he throw up just after 8. i read about regurgitation, but he didn't re-eat it and frankly i didn't want him too, it was all broken down by stomach bile and what not. is this normal? should i re-feed him and risk him throwing up again? or just wait until the morning?

[TRDmom]

I know this is a bit late, but I would wait and feed him his next meal at the usual time. I wouldn't be concerned about this happening once. Switching from kibble to raw can be a big transition for some dogs. IF the vomiting should persist, then I would be concerned. One good thing I see is that the food did break down (was in his system for awhile to absorb nutrients), rather than it all being chucked up in the same form that it went down. If it was more watery/bile, then his stomach may have been rejecting what it wasn't used to. My dog threw up some bile once when we went fully raw, but I haven't seen it since. I hope your boy is doing better! 

[Jordann]

It sounds like hunger pukes, to me. How much are you feeding him? How far apart are the meal times? His body may just be adjusting to not constantly being full of kibble.

How did today go?

[mizz.short]

I ended up feed him another chicken leg and he kept it down.
He continues to go to his bowl and old kibble tin and moves it around like he's hungry. I give him around 2 - 2.5% of his weight (110lbs) which is 1kg to 1.25kg.
Today we moved the old food & tin into the garage so he doesn't see it anymore. Not sure if it's just habit or he's really hungry.
Anyone else's dog do this? He's making me feel bad and I might up it to 3% he gets fed 2 chicken legs in the morning, a tin of sardines (84g) at 12pm than another chicken leg and 50g of liver around 7pm. Which is roughly 1.2kg daily.
I don't think he realizes this is his food yet, he sees it all as a "treat" and isn't getting the fullness from the unneeded grains he's always gotten.

Any suggestions?
Thanks!

[naturalfeddogs]

Sometimes over feeding can cause regurgitation. Try feeding smaller meals, several times a day until he gets a little more accustom to digesting raw. As he gets more used to it in the next couple of weeks, start backing off the several a day and start going back to one. (or two, if you prefer to feed two meals a day). Remember, his body is still adjusting, and you may just need to give smaller amounts at a time.

 

Also, be sure the chicken isn't too enhanced. You don't want more than 75mg of sodium. The less enhancement you can find, the better.

[mizz.short]

SO now we have something new! 

before while on kibble his poo would usually look like a cow patty, sometime more formed but for the most part sloppy and hard to clean up. i have been keeping an eye on the poops and noticed this morning he have a very orangey poo, which I've read is the juices (for lack of better word ) from his anal glands. I've also noticed him licking a lot starting from day 1 of the raw diet. (Jan 15th) and i had to wash his bed because he has yellow/orange stains all over it. i didn't realize at the time but just connected all the dots when i was that big orange poo this morning. 

 

could it just been because he had a more proper elimination and whatever was back up came out or is this a issue and i could be taking him to the vet?

 

thanks!

[naturalfeddogs]

Feeding chicken will give another color to the poop. That sort of sounds like what it is. Is that what you have mostly been feeding? You have just started feeding raw, so there will be an adjustment period until their bodies get used to the new way of feeding. So far, what you are describing sounds normal. I wouldn't worry right now.

[mizz.short]

Thanks for all the advice here are some pictures from day one of Raw, the big guy has a bad left leg, not sure if it's arthritis or what but we are hoping to bring back a little more muscle in that rear end! 

 

still eating poop, but now they are on the "new poop" because i'm sure it smells like chicken! and yes I've started with chicken and will be giving it to them for the first 2 weeks (also giving a fishy snack for there Omega-3's) He seems to be adjusting just fine, waits by the freezer now when he's hungry or thinks he's hungry

 

I'm excited for this journey of recovery (hopefully!!) 

 

The little girl is already adjusted, her body is incredibly versatile!

 

if anyone has any advice they want to give me i'm always open to hearing other opinions or ways of doing something! 

 

We will keep you posted along the way

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[Jordann]

I know my boys will spend a minimum of 15 minutes cleaning themselves. If they get large pieces of food, they will spend even longer licking themselves. It could be he is just cleaning himself.

Glad things are going well!

[mizz.short]

I've been feeding Hunter n Nina raw for almost 4 weeks and the large one is still having loose stool. He's been strictly on chicken quarters the whole time, I don't think there is enough bone for him.
How do I give him more bone?
What is the best animal bones to get for him? They say no weight baring bones from large animals but ribs cost way to much to be feeding a dog. I love him.. But I also like having a house to live in 😀
I've tried feeding him less but he will sit and wait by the freezer literally until it's time for his next feeding.
I have also broken his feedings into 4 different times throughout the day.
I really think adding more bone will help.
If someone could help me with what kind or even how I get it out be much appreciated 😊

[TRDmom]

Chicken and turkey drumsticks have more bone and your big guy should be able to handle them fine. Depending on how loose his stool is, you still might want to go ahead and feed turkey. I have seen whole turkeys in my area as low as .99/pound (not bad!). The video on the following link is a good tutorial on breaking down a whole turkey. http://preymodelraw....a-whole-turkey/

[Iorveth]

Don't focus too heavily on ratios, they are guidelines. The great thing about PMR is you can balance things out over time. My boys get boneless meals one or two days in a row, then they get some bone-in food the next day. I also do my organ meals once a week but my boys are able to handle their organs all at once. Some dogs need a little bit of organ every day. You will learn what works for your dogs as you progress.

 

^^^This. 

It's a balance over time thing as well as what works best for each dog. 

Dude has a sensitvie stomach. He gets bone EVERY day or else we're dealing with cannon butt. He has to have a really bone heavy meal when he gets organs. 

Buck can go days (and went over a month once during the tennis ball incident) without bone and still have perfect poops. He gets bone every 2-3 days to make sure he is getting the nutrition he needs even though he could go much longer without bone. 

Iorveth gets bone in meals every other day. He gets too bound up with bone every day but more than a day or two without bone means loose stool. 

I do make sure organs are done more precisely though. I know exactly how much each dog needs and I package them up by the week. Each dog has a container in the fridge that contains their week's worth of organs. They might get more one day or even none the next but, each Sunday, the fridge container is empty and the next container replaces it for the upcoming week. 

As far as frozen or thawed, it's all up to you and your dogs. I feed one ONLY solid because he thinks he's a python and will try to swallow everything whole. Just this morning, DH and I got out some small game hens for him, debated for a moment, and decided to give him the giant turkey necks we freeze together in a group because we KNEW he would try to swallow a hen. The oldest can eat thawed or frozen because he chews everything to mush before swallowing. 

If Hunter is just struggling with chicken, you can always try switching him to another protein. I did the same as you with my youngest. I kept him on chicken thinking he was just having a hard time transitioning but, as soon as I switched him to turkey, his poop became normal poop rather than runny within a day or two. I would also check to make sure the chicken is not enhanced as it can cause digestive upset in some dogs. 

If he needs more bone, buying whole birds (chicken or turkey or whatever poultry you are feeding) and cutting the breasts off both sides can reduce the amount of boneless meat. With whole birds, you do have more control over how much boneless they are getting. You'll quickly learn how to break down a whole bird quickly and efficiently as well as learn how to remove larger amounts of meat. You can either cook up the breasts for yourself or set them aside for later. When we were transitioning the youngest on the turkey, I would buy whole turkeys, remove the breast, and let him gnaw on the carcass until he was full. Lots of bone. When he was ready, he would gnaw on the carcass like normal but I would take some of the breast meat I had been collecting and give him some to start adding in more boneless to the meals. Eventually, I was able to remove less and less of the boneless meat until I could give him boneless meals without issue. I don't know if my description of the process was clear but I hope you can understand what I was trying to say.

[mizz.short]

Maybe I'll try him on Turkey, the chicken I buy has 70mg of salt and comes frozen skin on. I had quite a difficult time getting chicken.. I have to buy it from the grocery store, there is no other way around here. And I don't think they sell fresh turkeys.

[naturalfeddogs]

If you are buying whole turkey, they tend to have more enhancement solutions almost than chicken. You can buy already cut up turkey parts, but check the whole ones first. 

[mizz.short]

Cut up, fresh turkeys are about 7$/kg which is about $3.18lb. And my dog eats 1.5kgs a day to sustain his weight.
What do you guys pay to feed your dogs?