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Regurge Or Vomit? Should I Be Worried?

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#1
amie s

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Hi all,

New to site - new to raw. As in the last few days new. I just jumped in, didn't realize there was a protocol. Dogs are loving it. I have an almost 9 year old male Boxer who has very obviously got more energy the last several days than in quite some time. He is very happy with mama. I also have an almost 4 year old female boxer who loves the idea but seems to be having a few hiccups. I realize that loose stools are normal and there is some 'getting used to it' time. Two nights ago she had very loose, runny stool in the middle of the night. It was very dark and it was her first meal that I added some chicken liver to. She is only about 50 lbs so I quickly judged that she had too much in that first sitting and also some raw egg so I purposed to back off on that for a little while. Yesterday I gave them Turkey back which went really well and since it was mostly bone I gave them some gizzards and hearts too (chicken). She loved it and ate it all. I also followed it with a meal of all meat last night because it was so boney. So here is the reason for reaching out to you. Last night about 130am there was a strange noise followed by a very completely awful stench. She seems to have 'given back' the contents of her stomach. I know there is a difference between regurgitation and vomit, I'm just not sure exactly which this was. It seemed, from what I could tell in between gagging and running for the bucket for myself, to be mostly the turkey though on this side of the event I am now realizing there was no obvious boney material in the vomit. I am calling it vomit because they had their second feeding around 530pm and this happened many, many hours later. She was a bit chagrined, knowing I wasn't happy about her doing it on the carpet in my bedroom. I am just so new to this I don't know if I should be worried or if I should just give her meat this morning? I was planning to give a chicken quarter. I am reading everything I can to try and make this work. I believe in it. Especially after seeing how in the last 3 days her skin bumps of unknown origin seem to be almost completely gone. I don't want to give up on her or my big guy, he is loving this so much. Any advice on the particulars of vomiting vs regurge  and why at night are what I am interested in. I can appreciate all the kudos and the motivational speeches, that is all fantastic, but I NEED some particularly specific discussion here if anyone is interested.  

 

Thanks in advance,

 

A


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#2
lilasmom

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I think you are going way too fast. It wasn't that there was too much liver and egg, the problem is that the liver and egg was there at all. Skip a meal to ease the tummy a bit, and for 1-2 weeks just feed bony chicken. Organ meat should not be introduced until very last, after beef. Once the dogs are used to bone-in chicken for about 1-2 weeks, try feeding a meal of boneLESS chicken and if all goes okay do that for a week or so (some bone in chicken meals, some bone out). Once adjusted to this, you can try adding in some bone-in turkey. Once adjusted to that, add in some boneLESS turkey meals. At this point the dog should be able to handle bone in chicken, bone in turkey, and boneLESS chicken and turkey. Continue on like this with other proteins in this order: chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef, eggs and organs. Depending on the dog, this can take anywhere from a few weeks to six months. Definitely do not be feeding rich meats like organ or beef just yet. 

 

I would not be worried, this sounds like you just started in a way that doesn't work for most dogs. My dogs couldn't handle organs meat until about 5 months after their first raw chicken meal.



#3
lilasmom

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Vomiting typically happens a while after eating, whereas regurgitation can happen immediately after eating. Reasons for regurgitating can be that they ate too fast or their tummy just cannot handle that specific food or the amount they swallowed. My dog Lila used to regurgitate fur balls when she ate whole ground rabbit because of the rabbit fur, but now that her tummy is strong she digests it just fine. 



#4
amie s

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Thanks Lilasmom,

 

I have given the kids raw eggs quite a bit in the last few weeks as a source of protein while I was trying to decide how to move forward. (The short back story is I was feeding Blue Buffalo ran out and couldn't get more right when I was getting terribly disgusted by all the additives the makers put in the food. Maycie seems to be allergic to something I just don't know what.)

 

I really didn't think the egg would be a problem because they have had quite a few in the last weeks. I fed beef as one of the first raw meals I did, mostly because since Maycie seems to be allergic to something I have been assuming it was chicken and thought beef would be a better route.

 

You said in your post to feed bone in, then boneLESS can you explain why that is the more beneficial way to do it? You're saying get them used to the new protein with the bone first then go with bone less for a few days before adding said new protein?



#5
jdatwood

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Hi Aime, welcome to PreyModelRaw!  

 

Have you read over our getting started guide?

http://preymodelraw....el-raw-diet-r19



#6
amie s

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Yes... this morning. :phew:


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#7
lilasmom

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Thanks Lilasmom,

 

I have given the kids raw eggs quite a bit in the last few weeks as a source of protein while I was trying to decide how to move forward. (The short back story is I was feeding Blue Buffalo ran out and couldn't get more right when I was getting terribly disgusted by all the additives the makers put in the food. Maycie seems to be allergic to something I just don't know what.)

 

I really didn't think the egg would be a problem because they have had quite a few in the last weeks. I fed beef as one of the first raw meals I did, mostly because since Maycie seems to be allergic to something I have been assuming it was chicken and thought beef would be a better route.

 

You said in your post to feed bone in, then boneLESS can you explain why that is the more beneficial way to do it? You're saying get them used to the new protein with the bone first then go with bone less for a few days before adding said new protein?

 

Feeding a meat with bone-in helps with transitioning because the bone can act sort of like a "fiber" in keeping things firm. Once a dog has adjusted to bone-in meat, you can try feeding plain meat without the "fiber" so further help the body adjust to "fiberless" meats. Once you know a dog can handle meat with no bone, you can try a richer meat but WITH bone to prevent cannon butt.



#8
amie s

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Cannon butt!!!! :startle:  :lol:

 

Ok, I just finished their morning meal. Simple chicken quarter. Powder was a bit unsure at first but after I removed the skin and made a few slices for him to get ahold of he did well. Maycie was very, very tentative about  it. I took the skin off for her and made some slits for her, but she just wasn't totally interested. I stayed with her and pulled pieces for her so she could get ahold of them and learn to pull them off. She did get more into it and finally finished it off, but it was strange to see her almost not interested.



#9
lilasmom

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Oh yes I forgot to mention to remove skin at first! Good thing you did it anyway. Skin is fatty so it is also something for them to get used too gradually. I wonder if maybe she is associating the chicken with not feeling well? I know turkey is still pretty mild compared to most meats so you could also try that if she won't eat chicken, but your dogs are big enough to where a little tough love would be ok.



#10
amie s

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By tough love do you mean just letting her be hungry until she gets the idea about it and sticking with the chicken?

 

I think the chicken quarters for the next week or so will be good for the whole lot of us. I am going out of town this weekend for about a week and the chicken quarters will be good as there isn't much planning involved.

 

One more question then. In terms of the amount of food they should be getting each day I have planned for about a pound for Maycie and about a pound and a half for Powder. The chicken quarters were slightly less than the total amount allotted for the day, but my dogs are used to eating 2x daily so what do you think about following the chicken quarter up this evening with a small meal of plain chicken such as hearts and gizzards?



#11
jdatwood

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Here's an article we wrote about "tough love"   ;)

http://preymodelraw....-eaters-101-r32


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#12
lilasmom

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I would follow up with just plain chicken. Do not feed hearts or gizzards, those are organs and should not be fed until after they are transitioned to beef. Although hearts and gizzards are not considered organ meat when feeding dogs, they are still technically organs. 



#13
amie s

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Ok, read the article. I agree, it is worth it. In this case I am not sure it is an issue of being picky but maybe more of upset tummy, not sure if eating will be good or not. I saw her outside just before breakfast attempting to eat something green. After the gift she bestowed last night I am not surprised that she would be both hungry and also maybe not hungry enough to eat this stuff that smells awfully close to the product that upset her. She did eventually settle down and eat it all so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt as she is nearly 4 and has NEVER been picky about anything before. My only real prayer is that if she gives it back she doesn't do it at 3 in the am. Thank you for the help. I guess I better get back over to the store as I need to take advantage of the sale. Quarters for 99 cents a pound. Which makes them less than a dollar a piece.  :D


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#14
GimMom

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Chicken leg quarters are great, you can get them here, about 5 to a bag for about $5 or less, which is great. One of the things that drew me to raw in the first place is the cost. Even if I were spending the same amount on raw as kibble, it's still better because I hate vet bills, for a girl on a tight budget, that's huge because the vet bills are what always killed me, on top of the kibble. Gimli is on week 5 now, and he no longer has yeast infections and actually enjoys eating. We used to fight to get him to eat even a cup a day, coated it with coconut oil, threw in cheese, yogurt, anything to entice him and nothing. Raw makes him actually WHINE for his food (though, I wait until he stops, do not need a new bad habit!).
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#15
amie s

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GimMom,

 

Thanks for the post. I think my biggest concern was that it seemed the only thing in the vomit was turkey-ish but the beef she had for dinner didn't seem to be there. (Not that I inspected it closely, mind you) So - what would make her vomit JUST the turkey from the morning meal and not the beef from the evening meal. My kids have always gotten loads of freeze dried liver treats (beef) I am really surprised that the beef or turkey would upset her, though I guess I should have thought more about it since she has always had a bit of a sensitive tummy.

 

As to vet bills, OY! My kids always seem to have long stretches where everything is good, then bam they are both at the doc at the same time costing me hundreds of dollars.


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#16
Prey Model Raw

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GimMom,

 

Thanks for the post. I think my biggest concern was that it seemed the only thing in the vomit was turkey-ish but the beef she had for dinner didn't seem to be there. (Not that I inspected it closely, mind you) So - what would make her vomit JUST the turkey from the morning meal and not the beef from the evening meal. My kids have always gotten loads of freeze dried liver treats (beef) I am really surprised that the beef or turkey would upset her, though I guess I should have thought more about it since she has always had a bit of a sensitive tummy.

 

As to vet bills, OY! My kids always seem to have long stretches where everything is good, then bam they are both at the doc at the same time costing me hundreds of dollars.

Welcome Amie! Glad you joined up here. So far you've gotten stellar advice! 

Stick with the protocol and you'll be happy with the result. Moving too quickly is a very common mistake that a lot of newbies tend to make....I did *ssssshhhhh*

 

I think the reason you saw only turkey and no beef was that the boneless beef you gave was digested first. Since bones take longer to digest, especially when they're surrounded by meat, that is most likely the reason you saw just turkey. It could also be that her body isn't used to digesting so many new things all at once. Feeding 3 protein sources all in the same day- to a newly switched dog- is a recipe for disaster. 

 

But don't feel bad at all, we all have made mistakes....crap, I still do LOL

 

Just keep reading and asking questions :)


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#17
amie s

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Thanks everyone... I'll be back with the next disaster. Only because I am sure there will be a 'next'. LOL



#18
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Thanks everyone... I'll be back with the next disaster. Only because I am sure there will be a 'next'. LOL

 

Like I said earlier....I still make mistakes from time to time! The really nice thing about raw fed dogs is that their bodies are more capable of handling the craziest of things. I can't tell you how many times DAILY kibble fed dogs come in with serious colitis because they got a hold of something they shouldn't have. It takes a LOT for my dogs to even get loose stools at this point.



#19
amie s

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My Boxer boy Sam (Rip) always had a 'smoldering' case of pancreatitis. Mostly because he got into everything and also because his pap would often give him raw stuff, people food and crap and all on top of Pedigree kibble. It took me a while to get hubby to realize that food is important. Even now he is 'concerned' about this raw thing. He is trusting me and he knows in his heart it is right, but he doesn't have the stomach or the patience for this so it is on me. I have assured him that once the dogs and I both figure out what the hell we are doing and get a rhythm going it will all be fine and normal.  


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#20
GimMom

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My Boxer boy Sam (Rip) always had a 'smoldering' case of pancreatitis. Mostly because he got into everything and also because his pap would often give him raw stuff, people food and crap and all on top of Pedigree kibble. It took me a while to get hubby to realize that food is important. Even now he is 'concerned' about this raw thing. He is trusting me and he knows in his heart it is right, but he doesn't have the stomach or the patience for this so it is on me. I have assured him that once the dogs and I both figure out what the hell we are doing and get a rhythm going it will all be fine and normal.  

This is pretty much us to a T. I did all the research, shopping, chopping and convincing Shane to get on board. I think once he saw how much it was helping Gim and how not dangerous it can be (bones, bacteria, etc), he was much more convinced. He does give Gimli raw meals when I can't get home in time to give him his dinner (like tonight!), and even enjoys how happy Gimli is when he's eating (I usually hear EWWWWWWWW and then a chuckle coming from the kitchen when he feeds him). 

 

I totally don't mind if the shopping and chopping falls on me, I actually kind of enjoy cleaving the meats, great stress relief! :P


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