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Gimli Still Has Poop Issues

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#21
amie s

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Ok,

 

I'll see if I can see how they poop tonight, but yesterday was a LOT of mucous and I'm wondering too if this is a signal that he needs more bone than he is getting or if you think it is still just part of the transition and seems normal so give it a few more days...



#22
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It could be that they need more bone, if they're stools are soft. If their stools are hard with mucous surrounding the outside, you may actually want to start increasing the amount of boneless you add in very gradually- like adding in pieces the size of an almond and working your way up to more. 



#23
amie s

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These kids didn't poop at all yesterday. That is really weird. I read somewhere (I'm not sure if it was here or another site) that they will poop less on a raw diet because their bodies are using nearly every bit of available nutrient, so unless someone pipes up and says different I will not worry about that.

 

In other news the poop this morning was exciting! (If you can say that with a straight face. lol) Maycie's poop was nearly normal in quantity and COMPLETELY NORMAL IN COLOR!!!!! It was a bit soft still, but well formed otherwise. I am hoping to see an even better poop in the next couple days.

 

Powder's poop was ALSO NORMAL IN COLOR, however it was just the tiniest little amount. No more than about the size of a quarter, where it to be flattened out. (I do hope you know I didn't do that. LOL) I did not see ANY mucous though.

 

Yesterday's feeding was exactly as the day before with the exception of an extra thigh for Maycie because I can see her ribs a bit more than I would like.

 

I am going to keep going as I am for a few more days before adding any additional meat to the diet I think.


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#24
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Sounds like they're doing perfect! Small amounts of poo is completely normal. The amount they used to poop will never happen again, because like you said they utilize most of the food you feed them. 


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#25
GimMom

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Gimli is off and on. I've been adding meat little by little, and his poops were still slightly dark and almost hard (not totally, though). First poop had no mucous, second one was encased in mucous again and also dark. I've scaled back chicken hearts (was giving one as a treat when leaving for work). I'm guessing I should continue slippery elm a little while longer and just keep gradually keep adding more muscle meat?

Amie, I have heart attacks when he doesn't poop, too. Still getting used to not having three poops per walk. I was worried when he only pooped once the other day, but remembered that along with size, frequency shrinks, too. Glad yours are having better poops, though!

#26
amie s

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I think the mucous would bother me too. I certainly was a bit worried the other day when I saw all that mucous coming from my dog. I hope your mucous problem gets settled soon. And I hope my kids don't revert too much when I start adding additional meats. I agree that they may need a bit more bone though. Should I add a chicken wing to the mix? They are mostly bone.



#27
GimMom

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As long as you remove the skin and fat! And thanks, it's been a bit of a week or so dealing with this, I know he's missing his turkey necks! I still have a whole container of those. I also am almost out of backs, so shopping time tomorrow! Also need to make him a new batch of SE tea

#28
Britt0325

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I've done quite a lot of reading about stool because it's really a great indicator of all around health. From what I've read over the past year, the main concern with stool is color. Anything else is of little importance. Just make sure the color is normal. Green means the stool is moving through the system too fast. Yellow can mean the same thing although sometimes, they say. it can be an indicator of liver, gallbladder, or pancreas problems. I wouldn't worry too much about yellow though because in all honesty it's most likely just the stool moving too fast through the system as well. Bile is what gives stool it's color. Bile starts out green, turns yellow, then finely brown. 

 

I'm sure if you've ever seen a dog throw up bile it's been bright yellow. 

 

The most serious concern, and I mean if you see this in your or your dogs stool you need to rush to a doctor or vet IMMEDIATELY, is if the stool is white or clay color. This is a serious problem with the gallbladder or liver. Like a blockage, or the liver isn't producing enough bile, or something even as horrible as a tumor blocking the way for the bile to be released. I saw this with my own dog when he had liver and gallbladder issues and I never thought anything of it. I thought it was because I started feeding him chicken that his stool was lighter. Big mistake and I feel like an idiot for it but I didn't know any better at the time. NEVER take white or clay stools lightly, it is absolutely serious. The quicker you get yourself or your dog looked at the better. With feeding raw and bone it might be hard to evaluate the whiteness of a stool because the bone can cause stool to look white. I'm not telling you to evaluate your dogs stool by digging through it or anything but hopefully you can tell the difference between white bone and white stool. There should be some brown stool somewhere with the whiteness of the bone lol.

 

Shape and size is of little concern. Obviously with feeding raw I'm sure you know that. My dog used to poop a lot, even on a higher quality, high protein kibble. It went from 3 times a day to two and VERY little. Usually one larger poo and then maybe like a couple little "pebbles" at night. He's even skipped his 2nd poo sometimes and at first I was really concerned but it happens occasionally. The only time he ever has larger poos is when I add in something, like giving him frozen carrots for teeth cleaning, it goes in one way and right out the other. 

 

As far as mucus is concerned. It's a natural part of the intestinal tract. There's this whole new health thing going on where people are taking colon cleanses and all this crap to get rid of that build up of mucus and toxins. If that's what people want to do so be it but it's idiotic. The mucus is essential to the stool being able to move through the intestines smoothly. If you eat a healthy diet the mucus will naturally be removed from the colon by eating fiber, vegies, esc. I would never be concerned about mucus in stool on less it's accompanied by other symptoms which could be an indicator of IBS, Crohn's, or Colitis which are conditions associated with mucus in stool. 

 

I mentioned the colon cleansing thing for a reason though, because I think that might be a reason the mucus is possibly showing up in the dogs stool. With certain colon cleanses people eat things like oatmeal and a lot of soluble fiber filled foods which scrape the intestinal walls clean of mucus so that it comes out of the body with the stool. Since bones would absolutely be capable of doing just the same thing as oatmeal, if not better, that could be the explanation behind the mucus. The raw bone is basically just scraping out the mucus from the colon and that could mean there was an excess amount of mucus in your dogs colon and the raw bone is now effectively removing it. I wouldn't be concerned unless this continues to go on for a longer period of time or there are other symptoms as well. If that's the case it might be IBS or something else but I wouldn't over worry about it now. 


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#29
GimMom

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Thanks for all that, I'm analyzing my dog's poops a little better now! His mucous is still off and on, but he doesn't seem in any discomfort, and it isn't a lot, except the odd time. He's eating bone in still, but increasing the meat as well.

 

I'm okay with once a day poops! He did a decent sized amount at 11pm last night after not going all day (it was raining most of the day and he doesn't like to poo in the rain). It didn't smell as horrible as the ones he was doing when he had lots of mucous, though that one last night had a small amount. I have to go shopping tomorrow for more backs. 



#30
GimMom

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Too much meat, not enough bone today and yesterday, methinks. He had diarrhea both last night and this morning. Definitely slowing down the meat again, and maybe doing another SE tea if he's still having stomach issues. I accidentally dropped an egg on the floor last night and he got it, so that may have been what did him on the diarrhea issue.

 

Kind of frustrating! I have all these backs in the freezer and he hasn't been able to eat them yet because of the pooping issues. 



#31
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He's definitely a sensitive guy! 

 

Remind me how much does he weigh and how much are you giving him every day?



#32
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Initially, he weighed 42lbs when I started out. He doesn't look like he lost much, so he's likely still in around that weight. I was giving him 1.5% of his weight, so 6.5 oz per day. He may have gotten a little too much meat on part of that chicken leg quarter I was out of backs, but it was stripped of fat and skin and most meat). But then I dropped that egg, and after that it as yellowish mucous diarrhea last night and then this morning. But I'm all stocked up on backs now, so I'll scale back meat and add more bone. Should I maybe just give him the SE capsules instead of tea? He'll eat it if I rub it in peanut butter.

 

 

By the way, I got lucky and someone shared my FB page, so I mentioned this forum. Hopefully that will see us more traffic around here!



#33
Britt0325

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Has he always had a sensitive stomach or has all this just started with the transition to raw?

I'm wondering if maybe it's an issue with chicken. My dog has issues with chicken so I've stopped giving it. The raw no longer make him itch which was a problem with chicken kibble and even cooked chicken. With raw though he seems to have looser stool and it never happens with any other protein.

Could you maybe fast him tonight and then give a back tomorrow? Give his stomach some time to rest since he's having diarrhea.

I would say that if the stomach problems continue and mucus and diarrhea is still an issue by the end of the month it might be worth it to switch over to rabbit instead. It could just be an issue with that specific protein.

Just thought of something else, have you tried probiotics or a digestive enzyme supplement. Might help with the stomach issues too.
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#34
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Has he always had a sensitive stomach or has all this just started with the transition to raw?

I'm wondering if maybe it's an issue with chicken. My dog has issues with chicken so I've stopped giving it. The raw no longer make him itch which was a problem with chicken kibble and even cooked chicken. With raw though he seems to have looser stool and it never happens with any other protein.

Could you maybe fast him tonight and then give a back tomorrow? Give his stomach some time to rest since he's having diarrhea.

I would say that if the stomach problems continue and mucus and diarrhea is still an issue by the end of the month it might be worth it to switch over to rabbit instead. It could just be an issue with that specific protein.

Just thought of something else, have you tried probiotics or a digestive enzyme supplement. Might help with the stomach issues too.

On kibble, he was a nightmare. Almost always had a triple-poo walk, third poo was always complete mush. He farted lots, his tummy gurgled more. He started out fine on chicken, he had the transitional poops after I fasted him before his first raw meal, and his poops were nice little turds after a few days. Then I threw turkey necks in after 2 weeks, he had one or two soft poops and then was good on that. Started adding sardines in a rotation during weeks 3 and 4, and that's when the little brat had started sneaking kitty kibble from the feeder thingy we had in the kitchen, or what canned the cats dropped on the floor, plus the floor. So now, he's mostly been on backs and parts of leg quarters the last two weeks. Through all of this, his ears cleared up, and he only scratches those periodically. He scratches the rest of his body still, just a bit. But he's nowhere near as bad as he was pre-raw diet. Chicken kibble DEFINITELY made it flare up. I'd consider rabbit, hopefully I can get it somewhere local (and it's inexpensive).

 

What sort of supplement would you recommend? I was making a slippery elm tea, though it never thickened like it said it was supposed to, even as I put in what the directions said and more. I've given him table spoons of coconut oil here and there (it's good stuff, Nutiva E.V). I can finally afford to try getting him a probiotic tomorrow or an enzyme, so point me towards a good one. I'm not too sure of what supplements I need to add at this point, I'm just giving him the raw meat, basically. 



#35
Britt0325

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For probiotics I prefer food sources. I like kefir made from coconut milk. I'm also thinking of adding some other fermented foods to my dogs diet after I read that it can also really help with tarter build up. Fermented foods have a lot of good bacteria and they're natural. They also have enzymes that aid in digestion as well. A lot of probiotic supplements are made using soy and GMO products and I don't really trust supplements because they're not really regulated.

If anything I would look for a human supplement made by a trusted company that you feel makes high quality supplements. Look into where they source their ingredients from and just make sure you feel comfortable with the product. The same for any digestive enzyme products.

These links have a lot of helpful information about digestive enzymes and how to pick a product:

http://whole9life.co...ve-enzymes-101/


http://www.betternut...enaturopath/697

I think trying to find a probiotic supplement or giving him something with a lot of beneficial bacteria would be the best though. Raw meat has enzymes that help with digestion already and although a digestive enzyme supplement could also help I think probiotics would probably be the most beneficial for helping him with his stomach issues.

I would definitely keep in mind that it could be an issue with the chicken though. My dog was horrible with chicken kibble. Scratched himself raw and got terrible hot spots. Raw chicken is said to be better and usually it is, even for my dog who had such issues with chicken. Like I said though, he still gets loose stool with it though and that only ever happens with chicken. Nothing too serous, no mucus or anything, but definitely loose stool and at this point I've just given up on him being good with any form of chicken. Does fine with everything else though, even turkey, it's the weirdest thing.

How much coconut oil are you giving? Have you noticed if there is a correlation between the days you give oil and loose stool? When I started giving it to my dog I looked up dosage and it mentioned that too much can cause loose stool. It's really easy on the digestive system but like pretty much everything else, there's a limit to how much the body can handle.
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#36
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I think I was giving him about a tablespoon twice a day, and he had it both days he had diarrhea. I didn't give him any today. 

 

If I can switch him to turkey necks again, he liked those and I didn't notice any digestive issues with those. I'll check out the rabbit meat, too. I haven't noticed any pickiness when it comes to any proteins, so my guess is that he'll take to rabbit just fine, too. He never seemed to have issues with chicken, unless it was kibble or cooked. I'm trying to figure out if the kitty kibble actually threw him off THAT much, or if you're right, and he can't tolerate chicken as much. Should I try maybe fasting him tomorrow morning and then trying a turkey neck for dinner? He had another diarrhea after dinner and he had a back maybe an hour or two before that.

 

I'm thinking you're probably right with the probiotic. So are you thinking lactobacilus acidophilus, or something else? I want to get that and even some digestive enzymes, not just for him but myself, since my health could use a boost, too. I want to go the route that Natalie and Jon are going and try to get back to a no-processed food diet, and I've noticed digestive issues myself. So those links are helpful on many levels, ahaha. :P That, or I'll look into the kefir. Does it help better to be made from coconut milk? I'm not familiar with kefir so I'm not sure what to look for.



#37
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I found this when looking up how to make kefir:

 

http://www.passionat...milk-kefir.html

 

I actually really like that idea, since I like making smoothies and I also love trying to make stuff like this myself, too. Would the kefir be in place of pro-biotics and a digestive enzyme, or along with those? Because I know Gimli would love eating something like coconut milk kefir. How much would I need to give per day if I would to go that route?

Sorry about all the questions! I'm really intrigued by the the more natural way to go about this stuff.



#38
Britt0325

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For the coconut oil I would cut it down to a tsp. I'm pretty sure that 2 tablespoons is the max dose for a person per day so I think that's probably way too much for a dog his size. I only give a fourth of a tsp which I just started applying to his teeth regularly but he's only 15lbs so I'm sure your dog could handle more then that.

I would def fast him. It sounds like his stomach is a mess right now so it could probably use a break. A fast always seems to help whenever my dog is having issues.

If he does fine with turkey necks then that should be fine. If you don't feel like the chicken is the cause then I wouldn't stress about it. It seems like he's just been getting into things he shouldn't be. I would say if he had issues with chicken in the past then it's likely a problem but it might not be. If you want to try fasting him and then starting over again with just chicken backs that might work. He could have just had diarrhea tonight because his stomach is still irritated regardless of the chicken back. I would wait to see what his stool looks like in the morning since that will most likely be more effected by what he ate tonight.

I would look for a probiotic that had more then one strain of bacteria. This link has a good list of the most beneficial bacteria strains to look for in a supplement:

http://www.drdavidwi...s#axzz2eRlZXslM

I wouldn't worry about the coconut milk for yourself but I don't think dairy is really all that good to give a dog with stomach issues. If your interested for yourself, I like raw milk kefir. Probably not the safest thing to drink if you're pregnant, so I'll probably go for coconut milk kefir in the future during that time since it's not pasteurized, but it's the most beneficial and my mom grew up drinking raw milk and she's fine so I figure it can't be too dangerous lol.

For dosage, I would start out with a small amount and work your way up. I read somewhere that drinking a whole bottle of kefir will cause serious stomach problems and you only need a small amount anyways because it's full of beneficial bacteria. Probably, for his size I would start with a half tsp and work up from there. Whatever he seems able to handle.

#39
GimMom

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Right on! Thanks, that's a huge help/ I'm thinking a fast is in order, but I'll definitely wait until I see the morning stool. 

 

I also never realized that too much coconut oil could cause upset, I figured it would help with that. :/ I'll give him a break on that and find a probiotic and try the kefir after a fast and see how he does from there!



#40
Britt0325

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Sorry I just realized I didn't answer your other question, if you're going to use the kefir don't waste your money on a probiotic supplement. Look for a kefir product with at least 10 strains of bacteria. It should list which bacteria can be found in a product. If you make your own then it'll be even better and healthier. A probiotic wouldn't be necessary.

I would get an enzyme supplement instead then and give that with each meal. Raw food and the kefir, along with any fermented food or drink, have enzymes that make them easier to digest but for someone, or a dog, with stomach issues a supplement can still help. I would say that it shouldn't be a permanent need though, just temporarily until he gets fully adjusted over onto a raw diet and his stomach problems seem to clear up. The raw diet should become easy for him to digest without a supplement once he really gets used to it.

Coconut oil is great, don't get me wrong, it can just cause stomach upset and diarrhea if given to much. Similar to the kefir, you have to start out slowly in small amounts and work your way up and not go over board with it. A lot of people learn that the hard way. Actually when you look it up on Google some of the stuff people say about it is pretty funny.

Actually, this kind of made me laugh and it's pretty informative:

http://www.marksdail...hread57312.html




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