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Raw & Kibble. In The Same Meal...

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#1
Oso

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Alright I am getting a million questions and arguments on why kibble and raw CAN be fed together and that there is no risk or issue in doing so.. "my friend does it and their dogs fine" ... "different digestion rates should be a plus after a workout" etc etc... 

 

Any information out there as to why, other than the different digestion rates, that this could be a bad idea? 

I would never feed raw and kibble in the same meal, I have fed raw and kibble in alternating meals but never at the same time.. 

 

Help? 


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#2
Prey Model Raw

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I think this whole raw/kibble together debacle is really just a  matter of "know thy dog" because some dogs do great with it and others do horribly. BUT it takes the potential cannon butt/GI upset episode to find out. 

 

From my experience and the experiences I've seen over the last 5 years is that kibble and raw fed AT THE SAME TIME is a BIG no no and that not that many dogs do well with it. But feeding split meals of kibble and raw is ok, depending on the dog. I think it also has a lot to do with what raw foods are fed as well as what kibble is fed. 

 

For instance, feeding kibble and a bone heavy meal of turkey will be a lot different than feeding kibble and a boneless meal of beef. Do I know which one would be better? Not necessarily. But I do know that bone in things tend to digest even slower than boneless....so if you were to feed kibble with a meaty chicken quarter you have three rates of digestion going on which may or may not be great for the dog. 


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#3
Oso

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Yea its just ridiculous this guy wanted to argue it was perfectly fine, which it might be but no one said it was going to kill the dog or anything,  just it wouldnt be a great idea and it could cause the stomach issues etc, he argues his point for 3 hours, only to be asked what the point in feeding raw and kibble in the same meal would be, what would the benefit be...oh their wouldnt be any benefit lol, so in the end he argued for no reason about something thats generally not recommended because most dogs dont do well with it only to say its pointless to feed that way...

I tried finding some studies on the subject just to see if there were any health issues etc but found nothing..  



#4
SuperPug

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No matter the dog. I would never feed the two together in 1 meal. They both have different digestion rates. This could potentially create digestive problems. Raw digests between 4-6 hours. Kibble takes twice as long to digest. The body doesn't separate raw and kibble. It digests both at the same time. Wither than be faster than it should be or slower than it should be. I believe, problems can only arise from combining raw/kibble in 1 meal.


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#5
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Sounds like this dude just likes to argue LOL



#6
Swinn

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Hi guys :)  I'm new to the site and a bit late posting but thought I'd give my two cents anyway :)..

 

I have eight small and toy breed dogs (5 are mine and 3 are foster dogs (likely forever foster dogs)).  I also have fostered over 30 additional dogs in the last eight years (mainly puppies and retired puppy mill breed dogs).  My own get raw but my foster dogs get kibble (because rescue requires it), but I ALWAYS and with EVERY foster dog add canned and raw toppers to the high end kibbles they get (Orijen, Earthborn Primitive Natural etc).  In all those dogs I have yet to have one that couldn't tolerate kibble and raw together in the same meal.

 

In looking at digestion, it makes sense (to me at least) that raw would enhance the digestion of kibble by adding liquid (which helps stimulate hydrochloric acid) and extra protein (which also helps stimulate hydrochloric acid).  When hydrochloric acid is at appropriate amounts in the stomach it activates the protein digesting enzyme pepsin.  Yes, kibble and raw do digest at different rates but as the food is broken down to chime it leaves the stomach in small amounts to be further digested in the small intestines.  The remaining food stays in the stomach and is further processed til it too is chime and ready to move on.  This is in healthy animals of course.

 

It doesn't really make sense to add kibble to a raw diet but it totally makes sense to add raw to kibble.  I would never suggest that a kibble feeder not enhance the kibble diet with some whole, raw foods because they digest at different rates..

 

GREAT site by the way!!!



#7
SuperPug

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I would never suggest that a kibble feeder not enhance the kibble diet with some whole, raw foods because they digest at different rates..

 

GREAT site by the way!!!

 

I don't think that is what we are intending. We are intending that you can add whole raw foods to your dog's diet. But it is because of the different digestion rates that we recommend them to be in separate meals.

 

Do you have any articles or studies to back up your claim that raw would enhance the digestion of kibble based on what you said?



#8
Swinn

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Hi SuperPug,

 

No, I don't know of any studies done specifically showing that raw would enhance kibble digestion..  What I do know is that the gut requires water to produce adequate amounts of hydrochloric acid -- of course, adding small amounts of water to kibble would resolve this.  And the more protein in the diet the more hydrochloric acid produced as well -- adding a high protein canned food would suffice this need (as well as the moisture requirement).  Carbs (and I've read bone) digest at different rates than proteins too.  But I never see recommendations to feed bones or veggies, if fed, away from meats.    We don't feed our children that way either.  They eat meat and potatoes or peanut butter and bread.  And they eat salads with processed foods..  I don't think a dogs digestive tract is so delicate that they can't handle it..  I could be wrong though..??  I think the whole idea of not feeding fresh foods with kibble was likely started by kibble manufacturers to prevent people from adding fresh foods..??  Just a thought though, no proof of that.  :)

 

PattyVaughn on dog food advisor recently mentioned that her dog doesn't digest kibble adequately if raw is not added..  She fed one meal of raw and one of kibble but ended up having to add raw to the kibble to help with digestion.  Of all the dogs I've fostered, many in very poor health, I've never experienced one that didn't handle raw and kibble together (if they tolerated kibble at all). 



#9
Prey Model Raw

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Swinn, welcome! Sounds like you've got a fun household!

Glad you've had such great results with all your foster dogs.

I just tend to air on the side of caution and have people do what works for their dog and stay away from what doesn't. And I know that pretty much all of my dogs have had issues when given both raw and kibble at the same time. So for me, I don't recommend giving them together because of my experience.
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#10
taquitos

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Actually there is an article by Dr Peter Dobias about not mixing fruits with meats:

http://peterdobias.c...-good-for-dogs/

 

While he doesn't do a full PMR diet, this is what he suggests -- that fruits and veggies (the sweeter stuff in general) should be fed prior to (at least by one hour) a raw meat meal. This is because sugary things apparently digest at a faster rate, so when mixed with meat, it can ferment in their stomach, producing alcohol.

 

I don't really feed fruits or veggies, but it's something to think about for sure.

 

I have never come across an actual study comparing raw/kibble digestion rates, but to me, it's just better to be safe than sorry so I don't mix it. I feed them in separate meals. I do know plenty of people who haven't had issues feeding them at the same meal though.



#11
Swinn

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Thanks for the warm welcome Natalie -- this is a fantastic site,

 

I come from a bit of a different background.  Most of the people I have consulted with prefer to feed kibble.  Raw is the furthest thing from their mind.  I have been able to convert many to raw but not all or even most (at least not at first).  I would much rather see them add eggs, raw meats and other whole foods as toppers to the kibble than not add any fresh food at all.  Most of those that I have been able to convert didn't do so cold turkey but rather in baby steps..  If I had suggested that they only feed fresh away from kibble I doubt many of them would have converted..


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#12
Swinn

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Hi Taquitos,

 

I LOVE the look of your pup!!!  What an adorable little face!!!

 

I really like Dr. Dobias.  He is a wonderful holistic vet.  I follow him on facebook :).

 

He mentions cruciferous vegetables and hypothyroid.  Cruciferous veggies have a goitrogen that bind with iodine.  When the thyroid doesn't get enough iodine it can cause thyroid issues.  Cooking (steaming) crucifers deactivates the goitrogens and are safe then to eat.  I agree with Dr. Dobias about eating fruits away from other foods as well.  About 20 years ago I read a book called Fit for Life that was all about food combining.  Proteins could only be eaten with veggies, carbs could only be eaten with veggies and fruits were eaten alone.  My digestion was fantastic but the concept was too difficult to maintain for longer than six months and I went back to normal eating.  If one is willing to feed fruits as treats I think that is a good idea but its hard to feed that way and still avoid digesting foods.  Is it ideal to not mix the two foods --- sure.  But I'd much rather see them mixed than see fruits not given in most cases.  Many fruits, cruciferous veggies and some other foods (like green tea) are powerful cancer preventatives and fighters.  Oncologist Dr. William Li has a TED tv video on it called "Can We Eat to Starve Cancer".  These foods cause blood vessels feeding the tumors to die off (called antiangiogenosis) and some of those same foods prevent cancer by inducing apoptosis (or cell suicide).  In our toxic world I think many dogs can really benefit from the nutrients in these foods.  The Environmental Working Group did a study (I think the title is "Toxic Pets") and found that our pets are far more toxic than we are.  If people vaccinate, use heartworm preventatives etc it can be even worse. 

 

I do ferment veggies (and sometimes small amounts of fruit) for myself and my dogs and they LOVE them...  Actually, right now I primarily feed commercial raw as my time is limited but when I was home preparing all meals I had fermented veggies on hand often.  I have one that doesn't tolerate green tripe and the veggies act as a wonderful natural source of probiotics instead of the green tripe.

 

Dr. Dobias also brings up "nightshade plants".  I've mentioned these in several other posts.  Nightshade plants (potato, tomato, eggplant etc) have proteins in them called lectins (aka glycoproteins).  In those people and pets that are intolerant of nightshade plants the lectins bind with body tissue (joints being a prime binding site).  The lectins in nightshade plants can cause rheumatoid arthritis.  They can also aggravate any arthritis as they bind with glucosamine in the joints (something we give our dogs with arthritis).  Wheat and other gluten grains can do the same thing.  Lectins can also bind with the kidneys (and cause autoimmune kidney disease), the pancreas (and in humans have been linked to type 1 diabetes -- the same kind dogs get), the thyroid and other organs and glands.  They are actually producing a supplement now called N-acetyl Glucosamine which provides an outside source of the "glyco" (aka sugar) that these lectins bind to in the joints and tissues of the body.

 

On a side note --- chicken and eggs are another source of lectins and raw fed dogs are often fed a lot of chicken.  My Pom is intolerant of the lectins in chicken.  She gets ulcerative colitis if fed chicken more than about three days in a row.  I know several people with dogs intolerant of chicken.  There is some really interesting, and scary, research and articles on lectins on the net.  It is the lectins (gliadin) in wheat that makes it such a damaging food (for people and pets).

 

PS  -- Dr. Dobias does recommend green peas and green beans..  These two "legumes" are also sources of lectins however they seem to be less of an issue than nightshade plants and gluten grains.  I do have an acquaintance that's dog is intolerant of green beans and I know several that have dogs that don't tolerate peas.



#13
taquitos

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Hi Taquitos,

 

I LOVE the look of your pup!!!  What an adorable little face!!!

 

I really like Dr. Dobias.  He is a wonderful holistic vet.  I follow him on facebook :).

 

He mentions cruciferous vegetables and hypothyroid.  Cruciferous veggies have a goitrogen that bind with iodine.  When the thyroid doesn't get enough iodine it can cause thyroid issues.  Cooking (steaming) crucifers deactivates the goitrogens and are safe then to eat.  I agree with Dr. Dobias about eating fruits away from other foods as well.  About 20 years ago I read a book called Fit for Life that was all about food combining.  Proteins could only be eaten with veggies, carbs could only be eaten with veggies and fruits were eaten alone.  My digestion was fantastic but the concept was too difficult to maintain for longer than six months and I went back to normal eating.  If one is willing to feed fruits as treats I think that is a good idea but its hard to feed that way and still avoid digesting foods.  Is it ideal to not mix the two foods --- sure.  But I'd much rather see them mixed than see fruits not given in most cases.  Many fruits, cruciferous veggies and some other foods (like green tea) are powerful cancer preventatives and fighters.  Oncologist Dr. William Li has a TED tv video on it called "Can We Eat to Starve Cancer".  These foods cause blood vessels feeding the tumors to die off (called antiangiogenosis) and some of those same foods prevent cancer by inducing apoptosis (or cell suicide).  In our toxic world I think many dogs can really benefit from the nutrients in these foods.  The Environmental Working Group did a study (I think the title is "Toxic Pets") and found that our pets are far more toxic than we are.  If people vaccinate, use heartworm preventatives etc it can be even worse. 

 

I do ferment veggies (and sometimes small amounts of fruit) for myself and my dogs and they LOVE them...  Actually, right now I primarily feed commercial raw as my time is limited but when I was home preparing all meals I had fermented veggies on hand often.  I have one that doesn't tolerate green tripe and the veggies act as a wonderful natural source of probiotics instead of the green tripe.

 

Dr. Dobias also brings up "nightshade plants".  I've mentioned these in several other posts.  Nightshade plants (potato, tomato, eggplant etc) have proteins in them called lectins (aka glycoproteins).  In those people and pets that are intolerant of nightshade plants the lectins bind with body tissue (joints being a prime binding site).  The lectins in nightshade plants can cause rheumatoid arthritis.  They can also aggravate any arthritis as they bind with glucosamine in the joints (something we give our dogs with arthritis).  Wheat and other gluten grains can do the same thing.  Lectins can also bind with the kidneys (and cause autoimmune kidney disease), the pancreas (and in humans have been linked to type 1 diabetes -- the same kind dogs get), the thyroid and other organs and glands.  They are actually producing a supplement now called N-acetyl Glucosamine which provides an outside source of the "glyco" (aka sugar) that these lectins bind to in the joints and tissues of the body.

 

On a side note --- chicken and eggs are another source of lectins and raw fed dogs are often fed a lot of chicken.  My Pom is intolerant of the lectins in chicken.  She gets ulcerative colitis if fed chicken more than about three days in a row.  I know several people with dogs intolerant of chicken.  There is some really interesting, and scary, research and articles on lectins on the net.  It is the lectins (gliadin) in wheat that makes it such a damaging food (for people and pets).

 

PS  -- Dr. Dobias does recommend green peas and green beans..  These two "legumes" are also sources of lectins however they seem to be less of an issue than nightshade plants and gluten grains.  I do have an acquaintance that's dog is intolerant of green beans and I know several that have dogs that don't tolerate peas.

 

Thanks so much for the info! It's really helpful :) I didn't know lectin was found in chicken or eggs! Good thing I follow the general 2:1 ratio of red meats VS white meats, and only feed chicken every other month :)

 

Oh, and thank you! Hehe :) He's my little soot ball :3



#14
blacksheep

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They DO digest at different rates but so does ice cream and cookie dough...yet we still eat cookie dough ice cream.  Lettuce and beef also digest at different rates but we still eat tacos.  

 

With that said, I eat my ice cream with a fork.

In other words, do what works for your household.


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#15
SuperPug

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Sorry, for the late response to your replies.(life takes a hold of ya sometimes)

 

You provided some excellent reads and have a different view on the subject at hand. The whole diet itself is pretty much based on the "know they dog" statement. What works for one, may not work for another. I too have had issues mixing raw with kibble. Created a VERY noisy tummy, gassy and uncomfortable dog. This dog naps several times a day and she couldn't even get in a half hour nap! So, based off that experience, I recommend(especially new feeders) people to not mix the 2 in 1 meal.

 

I am no vet by any means. And my knowledge in the health field is VERY limited. Having you on the site will help me expand my knowledge some more. The lectins in chicken; my pug seems to be having issues with chicken as well. 1st it seemed to be commercial only birds. Started feeding her the turkeys/ducks we hunt and she is fine with that. So then I decided to source some naturally reared chickens and she STILL is having issues. Granted it is much less of an issue than from before, but her itchiness is still increased. With commercial chickens, she would gnaw herself raw. Couldn't leave her alone without coming back to her rear end(right where her curly tail rests) being red, bleeding and very raw. With the naturally reared chickens, it is just an increased bit of itching. What were the symptoms that your Pom expressed with sensitives to lectins?


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#16
Swinn

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Sorry, for the late response to your replies.(life takes a hold of ya sometimes)

 

You provided some excellent reads and have a different view on the subject at hand. The whole diet itself is pretty much based on the "know they dog" statement. What works for one, may not work for another. I too have had issues mixing raw with kibble. Created a VERY noisy tummy, gassy and uncomfortable dog. This dog naps several times a day and she couldn't even get in a half hour nap! So, based off that experience, I recommend(especially new feeders) people to not mix the 2 in 1 meal.

 

I am no vet by any means. And my knowledge in the health field is VERY limited. Having you on the site will help me expand my knowledge some more. The lectins in chicken; my pug seems to be having issues with chicken as well. 1st it seemed to be commercial only birds. Started feeding her the turkeys/ducks we hunt and she is fine with that. So then I decided to source some naturally reared chickens and she STILL is having issues. Granted it is much less of an issue than from before, but her itchiness is still increased. With commercial chickens, she would gnaw herself raw. Couldn't leave her alone without coming back to her rear end(right where her curly tail rests) being red, bleeding and very raw. With the naturally reared chickens, it is just an increased bit of itching. What were the symptoms that your Pom expressed with sensitives to lectins?

 

I totally get how life can take hold :)...  Ughhhh 

 

I definitely agree that one should feed what works for the specific dog.  Dr. Karen Becker, nutritionist Monica Segal and nutritionist Cat Lane have all made the comment that some dogs don't tolerate raw food..  Cat just mentioned it last month on her Yahoo group (The Possible Canine) and I left a post asking why she thought that was --- she didn't reply.  I would think that there was something else going on if all three hadn't said it..  With all the dogs I've had/fostered I've never experienced that -- even ones with HORRIBLE digestive issues.  However because a few don't do well with it we don't suggest that all wanting to feed raw start by cooking their foods and then wean on to raw if able.  For some, like your little one, it may be necessary to home cook or keep kibble and raw at different meals but for the vast majority I don't think there is really an issue....  My only concern with making a sweeping statement like that is that it could prevent some kibble feeders from experimenting with raw...  That would be BAD...  I have worked with a few people who converted to raw cold turkey but most started by enhancing the kibble diet with raw.  And yes, this is a site for raw feeders but others link to posts made here --- that is how I found this site.  I hope I'm making sense --- didn't sleep until after 2:30 last night and my brain is angry with me :)..

 

Awww, your poor little baby!!! :(  My Pom gets SEVERE ulcerative colitis with exploding diarrhea if she gets too much chicken.  I feed exclusively organic (and free range when able).  The thing with lectins is that they affect different people (and pets) differently.  Take gluten --- some get gluten intolerance or digestive upset, while some get celiac disease (malnutrition etc) and yet others have neurological issues and no digestive issues.  People with gluten ataxia have episodes of temporary blindness, stroke like symptoms (speech issues, drooping face etc), white matter brain lesions (aka brain damage in the white matter area of the brain) etc.

 

I have experienced those very symptoms attributed to gluten ataxia (except the stroke like symptoms) only I believe dairy, and not gluten, has caused mine.  I started having vision loss at age 12.  I was diagnosed with white matter brain damage in my early 30's.  In addition to those symptoms I've had (over the years) joint issues in both knees requiring the use of crutches, inflammation in my jaw that would make my teeth loose, sinus issues, headaches, malnutrition symptoms (like iodine deficiency hypothyroid, iron anemia, b12 anemia etc).  Symptoms started when I was a child but I wasn't diagnosed, despite having an ND as a father, until I met the right doctor when I was 40 years old.  Sorry, got a bit off track there -- just wanted to emphasize that symptoms can very greatly from person to person and pet to pet.  Other issues attributed to lectins --- symptoms of food poisoning (vomiting and diarrhea), kidney disease, type 1 diabetes (the kind dogs get), thyroid disease, behavioral issues (shyness as well as aggression), arthritis, multiple sclerosis, cancer and on and on.  My boss gets "geographic tongue" from the lectins in strawberries.  I know several people that can't tolerate cucumbers..  These are all healthful foods but when eaten in excess can have some significant health consequences to those that are intolerant of them...  One of the reasons I think feeding a WIDE variety of foods is a wise idea...

 

One of the posters on DFA had made a comment that dogs (and people) could react to a "family" of proteins -- such as all poultry etc.  I kinda poo pooed the idea but leave it to my own dog to teach me I'm not as smart as I hoped I was :)...  As mentioned, she gets colitis from chicken.  She has eye goobers most of the time and I could never pinpoint what the problem was --- I don't use heartworm, flea/tick, don't vaccinate after initial shots (even for rabies with her), feed organic and a wide variety etc.  Sure enough I started noticing the goobers were worse when eating duck -- so eliminated duck and noticed improvement but not 100%.  Then realized she was also reacting to turkey and the ostrich that I was feeding ----- ostrich???  UGHHH  CRAP :)  I have to figure out another way to get adequate omega 6 linoleic acid in her now....

 

Some potential benefits of lectins --- they have discovered that certain lectins can kill cancer cells in the same way that they cause disease.  Banana lectins have been found to kill the HIV virus.  If my hubby makes me mad I can give him food poisoning by adding the soaking water from pinto beans to something else he is eating :)..  He gets violent food poisoning from pinto bean lectins.


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#17
SuperPug

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Haha, that would be so mean to do to your hubby xD

 

I don't think telling someone to not mix raw/kibble into 1 meal would deter some people from experimenting with raw feeding. Maybe the lazy owners? But we all know raw feeding isn't a very lazy way of feeding. We do alot of work to find the best deals, the right meats, cuts and to portion meals. The laziest it gets is tossing your dog a huge chunk and letting them go at it. But there is still a balance in the diet that needs to be established.

 

I think it is possibly my pug may have senstives to lectins. I'm still experimenting with the chicken. I've also only been giving her pieces that may only make up of 10% of her meals. And most time it is given maybe once a week. Maybe I should stop playing chicken and give her some more chicken. lol I just fear she she'll suffer from the itching. I only want the best for her and make her happy.


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