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Beef!

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#1
BoxerMum

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So it's been closing in on a week with turkey, and dukes poops are fantastic and that's with the skin on..

Feeding beef will be our next protein in the line ..


How do I go about introducing this without getting cannon butt.. At the moment.. He gets 1.5lbs a day.. Roughly 11oz twice a day give or take..

What are the best cuts to find? I'm from a cattle farm.. We haven't killed a cow for our own stock in awhile and the meat we have now are pretty good cuts, steak and ground beef.. For a bit ill be just buying at the grocery store until November in which we will be getting a cow from the farm...

Can I buy a cheap roast, cut it up and portion it out? Would he still get both his meals with bone in slowly adding more beef and cutting back on chicken?

Thanks for the feedback! Loving the results I'm seeing with Duke thus far.

#2
Spy Car

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I'd advise adding some fairly lean beef slowly to meals that have bone (and meat) from chicken or turkey. If the stools look good (which is likely) gradually increase the proportion of beef. I would not feed beef-only boneless meals out of the blue.

As to the cut, sort of depends of what you can get locally at a price that works for you. Many of us (me included) find beef hearts to be an attractively priced and heathful muscle meat.

Otherwise exploit local opportunities for good deals.

Bill

#3
BoxerMum

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So as I gradually increase am I decreasing bone in meals though? Or is it okay for him to always have a bone in meal?

#4
TRDmom

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For a bony beef cut, oxtail is good. I get my beef from a guy who owns cattle/has a meat company. I get whatever he can't sell. Usually liver and heart, but I've gotten cheek, kidney, oxtail, tongue and some other things (e.g. fat). My dog loves all of it! I know boxers in general, and your guy in particular, can have digestive issues. With that in mind, make sure bone (of any species) is included in the meals with beef (at least when starting out) to keep his stool firm. Of course, the minerals in the bone are nutritious too. Good luck! :) 



#5
TRDmom

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So as I gradually increase am I decreasing bone in meals though? Or is it okay for him to always have a bone in meal?

 

Ideally, you should have bone in every meal. Since that is generally not possible 100% of the time, try to balance bony and boneless meals. For example,  I might feed a very bony meal one day and boneless the next. OR I might give something boneless with another bony food, like beef heart and chicken feet.



#6
Spy Car

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So as I gradually increase am I decreasing bone in meals though? Or is it okay for him to always have a bone in meal?

 

Personally, I try to balance meals pretty carefully. I pack foods into portion sizes before freezing so I can mix and match diverse proteins, feeding liver every other day and rotating other organs the off day. I aim for getting close to the optional bone/meat/organ ratios in every meal.

 

I'm probably among the minority (as most raw feeders—I think—try to "balance over time").

 

I try to diversify protein sources over time (and "balance" in that regard) but don't see a purpose in stressing the digestive system with either too much meat, too much bone, or too much organ in any given meal, given that I'm feeding frankenprey (a meal made up of parts) rather than whole prey.

 

Thoughts on this will differ. I'm a meal balancer.

 

Bill


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#7
BoxerMum

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Id love to see how you guys all pack your meats and the "set up".

#8
Iorveth

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I am a "balance over time" person, but my "over time" is generally about a week. I'm not too fussed on how much bone and meat they get since I do it according to poop for each dog and each dog is different, but things like organs are portioned out into baggies that hold a week's worth. 

Some dogs can't handle bone in every day and some need it. Old Man Collie was one of those who needed it every day. Buck and Iorveth can't handle bone every day so Buck gets it every 2 days and Iorveth gets it every other day. There is some variation week to week, but, in general, that's about how often they get bone. They may not get organ every day, but their week's worth of organ WILL be eaten by the end of each week. They do get fish in some form every day too. 

 

I also like to add a little of the new protein at a time. You won't have to do that so much later, but in the beginning, slower is better.

 

I try and try to get some kind of organization going and it all just ends up going out the window after a couple of weeks. At this point, I just have shelves dedicated to each protein type (poultry/pork/beef/fish and "exotic") with my organs in the door. We have the general guidelines we follow that I mentioned above, but we just kind of mix and match depending on what we have.

 



#9
naturalfeddogs

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Mine don't get bone everyday, it just depends on the dog and their personal sensativity. Some need more, some need less. Being that you are still in transition, some bone at each meal would be good. If you go with pork next, you can give ribs. Beef bones tend to be dense, so I don't feed them at all. After pork you could move on to beef, and give it boneless, and keep some pork ribs in there for the bone content. 


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#10
Iorveth

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I don't feed beef bones either and would agree that bone with every meal during the transition is a good idea unless the dog is having chalky poop or rabbit pellets.



#11
Spy Car

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Id love to see how you guys all pack your meats and the "set up".

 

My system (such as it is) is to breakdown items into portion sized pieces and then freeze. As "portion control" I use what comfortably  fits into a snack sized zip-lock bag. The individually bagged portions are then packed in larger zip-locks (so double bagged) and labeled. 

 

Meals generally consist of about 4 portions of meat/bones/connective tissue/fish and 1 portion of organ. The organ is cut into smaller pieces that the meat with the aim being to approximate 10% of the total meal. I feed liver every other day, with the off day being a rotation of other organs.

 

Some items (like chicken quarters) need larger bags and count as double portions.

 

I try to organize the freezer space with somewhat like items together. I'll pick the "bone" portion (an RMB) first generally, and then select the other items around that. I usually have at least one red meat portion, often chicken for bone, often a piece of tendon or cartilage, and some oily fish. But meals vary. One day it might be elk, another day bison, another day lamb. Green tripe. Eggs. Depending.

 

Bagging portions up front takes work, but makes meal-times easy.

 

I do like having some chicken feet or duck feet on hand so if I want to feed a meat heavy meal, I can add some high bone treats.

 

I now feed most things frozen. Having been fed raw since 8 weeks, my 16 month Vizsla has extraordinarily strong jaw and neck muscles (which I'm sure is true of most PRM dogs), so he has to work a little harder on frozen portions than thawed ones. 

 

Bill


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#12
BoxerMum

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So do you think going with pork next is best instead of beef ? What are some cuts of pork that you mostly feed? I see some will throw down a slab of pork ribs, do they eat it all or do you pick up after they're full?

I think I'm over thinking things!! Lol once I start asking stupid questions I'm over processing things

#13
Iorveth

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Pork is typically one of my boneless meats, but pork ribs are a nice, bony meal to start with. I also love buying the boneless or bone in pork chops when they are on sale because they are nearing their sell by date. The bone in pork chops have machine cut bone, so I do remove that, but it's worth the time required to remove the bone for the price I buy them at.

 

Some dogs will self regulate and will stop when they're full. Old Man Collie was that way. He ate when he wanted and left the rest for us to pick up. Buck can pack it in and Iorveth will try, but he barfs up what his stomach can't hold (then will re-eat it if you don't beat him to it) so we do make sure those two aren't just given free rein with a large hunk of meat. We've made that mistake with each of them once or twice so now we just don't let them eat until they're that full. Buck did look pretty funny because he looked like he was about to have a litter of puppies!

 

Do make sure you leave the ribs intact. You don't have to feed the whole rack, but don't feed individual ribs until you know how your dog will handle them. I've known too many dogs that will swallow a single rib whole. You really just feed them like you feed anything else. Buck gets a whole rack, but Iorveth gets half a rack so we just cut it into two sections.

 

And don't worry, we all overthought it when we first started! It gets easier. I've been feeding this way for over 4 years now, but I was all over the place when we first switched.



#14
BoxerMum

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Thanks everyone!

#15
naturalfeddogs

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Pork is what comes just before beef. Pork ribs are easy to get through, so it's a good bone source. I buy a whole rack of ribs, and cut it into sections sized for each dog, cutting between the rib bones. They are really easy to cut through. 



#16
Spy Car

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I'd go with beef over pork as the next step (keeping bone-in chicken in the mix).

 

Seems to me a lot of dogs get gassy on pork, and that beef is more easily digested. This goes against the standard advise on this forum.

 

Red meat is packed with nutrients and something (all things being equal) I'd prefer to start earlier for that reason alone.

 

I'd add oily fish like mackerel, anchovies, or sardines  (not PNW salmon) next. Then pork. Unless I had lamb, goat, bison, elk, venison, etc. Then pork would be bumped to the end of the line.

 

Bill



#17
Iorveth

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I'd add oily fish like mackerel, anchovies, or sardines  (not PNW salmon) next. 

 

Living in the PNW, I've learned that it's not just salmon. It's things like trout too. Anything that lives in or swims up freshwater. Rickettsia is a microorganism that lives inside parasites (flukes, I believe) which live inside snails. The fish, traveling through the freshwater, eat the snails and are then carrying the microorganism, Rickettsia, which is what causes the salmon poisoning disease. Not all of the parasites are going to cause SPD. It's the ones carrying parasites that are, in turn, carrying the microorganism. 

I've come to be more knowledgeable on SPD than I was before because we recently bought a box of mackerel at our local grocery store. It stocks up on mackerel every year because people love to use it as crab bait. We just let some kidney and turkey necks go rotten and use the mackerel for dog food! Anyhow, we opened up this box of "mackerel" and it was definitely NOT mackerel. I know what mackerel look like and these were very obviously freshwater fish. Turns out they were bangus (also known as milkfish). These are from the Philippines and can cause something very similar to SPD. Same process, even. The flukes are infected with a microorganism and latch onto fish which are then eaten by dogs. Although, with this one, unlike SPD, dogs, cats, humans, and a few other species can be infected. With SPD, only canines are at risk which is why bears, raccoons, etc. can eat salmon without issue. 

Anyhow, I know fish was only mentioned, but I thought it was worth bringing up since only salmon was pointed out as being risky to feed.



#18
TRDmom

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I currently have a small chest freezer in the garage for the dog. He also gets the bottom (large compartment) of our freezer. I usually bag up individual meals (based on size) in freezer bags before storing. I recently got a lot of chicken quarters (80lbs) that were on sale and didn't have time to bag individual meals before storing, so I put what I could into a gallon-sized freezer bag. I let a bag thaw for about a day so I can pull out what I need, otherwise its one frozen mass.

 

The raw introduction guidelines are a good idea, but I didn't follow them. My dog was already used to eating raw meat, I just phased out the kibble and had to get him keen on liver. Also, I don't feed pork (due to my personal values) or fish (he just doesn't care for it and its too expensive just to have him to turn his nose up). I do poultry (chicken, duck, turkey, Cornish hen), goat, lamb, deer, beef, and rabbit. Whatever I'm able to get is on the menu. For example, he might be getting a rotation of deer, beef, and goat OR chicken and beef... it really depends.

 

The one thing to try to avoid doing is feeding only one cut of one meat. Chicken quarters are affordable and have a decent amount of meat and bone, but it wouldn't necessarily be ideal nutrition to feed it exclusively (though I personally think that it would be better than your average dog food, like Dog Chow). For example, if you raise a certain animal, like beef, then its not a bad idea to feed a lot of beef, but feed the whole animal (tongue to tail). Add other meats as you can.



#19
TRDmom

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...Anyhow, I know fish was only mentioned, but I thought it was worth bringing up since only salmon was pointed out as being risky to feed.

 

Thanks for the information!


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#20
naturalfeddogs

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I'd go with beef over pork as the next step (keeping bone-in chicken in the mix).

 

Seems to me a lot of dogs get gassy on pork, and that beef is more easily digested. This goes against the standard advise on this forum.

 

Red meat is packed with nutrients and something (all things being equal) I'd prefer to start earlier for that reason alone.

 

I'd add oily fish like mackerel, anchovies, or sardines  (not PNW salmon) next. Then pork. Unless I had lamb, goat, bison, elk, venison, etc. Then pork would be bumped to the end of the line.

 

Bill

It just really depends on the dog, getting gassy or not. Some may, but majority don't seem too. You'll never never know unless you try. That's the whole reason of going protein by protein in the beginning. In seven years of feeding raw, pork has never caused as issue for any I have ever fed it to. Deer is the gas problem for us. Venison gas will run you out of our house.  






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