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Beef!

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#21
Spy Car

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Living in the PNW, I've learned that it's not just salmon. It's things like trout too. Anything that lives in or swims up freshwater. Rickettsia is a microorganism that lives inside parasites (flukes, I believe) which live inside snails. The fish, traveling through the freshwater, eat the snails and are then carrying the microorganism, Rickettsia, which is what causes the salmon poisoning disease. Not all of the parasites are going to cause SPD. It's the ones carrying parasites that are, in turn, carrying the microorganism. 

I've come to be more knowledgeable on SPD than I was before because we recently bought a box of mackerel at our local grocery store. It stocks up on mackerel every year because people love to use it as crab bait. We just let some kidney and turkey necks go rotten and use the mackerel for dog food! Anyhow, we opened up this box of "mackerel" and it was definitely NOT mackerel. I know what mackerel look like and these were very obviously freshwater fish. Turns out they were bangus (also known as milkfish). These are from the Philippines and can cause something very similar to SPD. Same process, even. The flukes are infected with a microorganism and latch onto fish which are then eaten by dogs. Although, with this one, unlike SPD, dogs, cats, humans, and a few other species can be infected. With SPD, only canines are at risk which is why bears, raccoons, etc. can eat salmon without issue. 

Anyhow, I know fish was only mentioned, but I thought it was worth bringing up since only salmon was pointed out as being risky to feed.

 

Correct, both trout and salmon (closely related species) from the NW carry a SPD risk.

 

Those Phillipine milkfish are the most boney fish I've ever consumed. Sharp little bones too. They are kinda tastey, but bones, bones. bones!

 

Bill



#22
Spy Car

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I currently have a small chest freezer in the garage for the dog. He also gets the bottom (large compartment) of our freezer. I usually bag up individual meals (based on size) in freezer bags before storing. I recently got a lot of chicken quarters (80lbs) that were on sale and didn't have time to bag individual meals before storing, so I put what I could into a gallon-sized freezer bag. I let a bag thaw for about a day so I can pull out what I need, otherwise its one frozen mass.

 

The raw introduction guidelines are a good idea, but I didn't follow them. My dog was already used to eating raw meat, I just phased out the kibble and had to get him keen on liver. Also, I don't feed pork (due to my personal values) or fish (he just doesn't care for it and its too expensive just to have him to turn his nose up). I do poultry (chicken, duck, turkey, Cornish hen), goat, lamb, deer, beef, and rabbit. Whatever I'm able to get is on the menu. For example, he might be getting a rotation of deer, beef, and goat OR chicken and beef... it really depends.

 

The one thing to try to avoid doing is feeding only one cut of one meat. Chicken quarters are affordable and have a decent amount of meat and bone, but it wouldn't necessarily be ideal nutrition to feed it exclusively (though I personally think that it would be better than your average dog food, like Dog Chow). For example, if you raise a certain animal, like beef, then its not a bad idea to feed a lot of beef, but feed the whole animal (tongue to tail). Add other meats as you can.

 

I don't know if its what you're getting at (or not) but my reading of the pertinent passages in the Torah and Talmud convince me that pork for dogs is halachaically sound.

 

I have my own struggles with swine.

 

Bill (not a rabbi, not actually Jewish, but Jewish adjacent :D



#23
Spy Car

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It just really depends on the dog, getting gassy or not. Some may, but majority don't seem too. You'll never never know unless you try. That's the whole reason of going protein by protein in the beginning. In seven years of feeding raw, pork has never caused as issue for any I have ever fed it to. Deer is the gas problem for us. Venison gas will run you out of our house.  

 

Venison is actually one of the few proteins we haven't tried. No deer hunting friends here in Los Angeles. Blessing in disguise?

 

Elk was very well tolerated (and loved).

 

Pork caused gas. Much better tolerated now. I most feed weird part like fur-on ears, snouts, and trotters. Some pig organs too. 

 

Mine is not the only dog I've known to get gassy on pork (it seems common in my experience) but never on beef. 

 

Bill



#24
Iorveth

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I agree on the gassiness. The only one it makes gassy in our house is Buck, but I think he's already just a gassy dog. Iorveth gets gassy after BIG meals of any protein and NOTHING made Dude gassy.

 

Bill, I've heard that about the milkfish. I've heard that, when cooked right, they're really tasty, but the bones are a pain! I don't know what we're going to do with them. They can't be returned once they leave the store,  I don't feel comfortable feeding them to the dogs, and we had some stinky kidney in the freezer that smelled SO bad that it has permeated everything inside. We've stopped buying dog food so that we can empty out the freezer enough that it will fit in our big cooler so we can give the dang thing a good scrub! Unfortunately, that milkfish has also been a victim of the stinky kidney. 

 

Although, on the bright side, that's how we discovered our winning combination for crab bait. Rotten, green kidney brings them in and stinky turkey necks keep them picking at the bait until we pull the pots up! Maybe the milkfish can be used as bait. That way, they won't go to waste.



#25
Iorveth

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Venison is actually one of the few proteins we haven't tried. No deer hunting friends here in Los Angeles. Blessing in disguise?

 

Elk was very well tolerated (and loved).

 

Pork caused gas. Much better tolerated now. I most feed weird part like fur-on ears, snouts, and trotters. Some pig organs too. 

 

Mine is not the only dog I've known to get gassy on pork (it seems common in my experience) but never on beef. 

 

Bill

 

You know, don't take this as fact because I don't know for sure, but if you fed any kind of hooves, that could be a contributing factor. Buck used to eat pig legs on a regular basis and his gas was toxic. He gets gassy on pork, but not toxic gas. I guess this means I also have to take back what I said about Dude never getting gassy because I forgot about the one period of time we had several calf legs from the day old bull calves we got from our co-op. They both got gassy when they ate hoof. I don't know about Iorveth because he was still only a "maybe I should pair this dog with this b*tch" thought by his breeder at that point. I remembered hearing a lot that hooves can give dogs gas, but never experienced it when we fed kibble because we just didn't.



#26
Spy Car

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I agree on the gassiness. The only one it makes gassy in our house is Buck, but I think he's already just a gassy dog. Iorveth gets gassy after BIG meals of any protein and NOTHING made Dude gassy.

 

Bill, I've heard that about the milkfish. I've heard that, when cooked right, they're really tasty, but the bones are a pain! I don't know what we're going to do with them. They can't be returned once they leave the store,  I don't feel comfortable feeding them to the dogs, and we had some stinky kidney in the freezer that smelled SO bad that it has permeated everything inside. We've stopped buying dog food so that we can empty out the freezer enough that it will fit in our big cooler so we can give the dang thing a good scrub! Unfortunately, that milkfish has also been a victim of the stinky kidney. 

 

Although, on the bright side, that's how we discovered our winning combination for crab bait. Rotten, green kidney brings them in and stinky turkey necks keep them picking at the bait until we pull the pots up! Maybe the milkfish can be used as bait. That way, they won't go to waste.

 

 

They were selling the milkfish as bait, right? I wouldn't feed milkfish to a dog, flukes or no flukes.

 

I actually get most of my fish at a local seafood-oriented supermarket that caters to Filipinos.

 

When I purchase big numbers of sardines, mackerel, or anchovies, they usually ask me if I'm going fishing?

 

It was the pork meat not legs (hooves) that caused gas in our case. No other meat has done this.

 

I used to feed fur-on pig and sheep legs (with hooves) but had a bad scare with a partial obstruction (that passed) but had two days of terror nursing a dog I thought might need major surgery, could parish, and was very unwell (and looked at me with big pleading eyes). It ended well, and the vet was involved. But never again will hooves/legs be on the menu.

 

The raw diet has gone so well, but that was the one moment that could have been a big #@%! up. Never again.

 

Bill



#27
Iorveth

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They were selling the milkfish as bait, right? I wouldn't feed milkfish to a dog, flukes or no flukes.

 

I actually get most of my fish at a local seafood-oriented supermarket that caters to Filipinos.

 

When I purchase big numbers of sardines, mackerel, or anchovies, they usually ask me if I'm going fishing?

 

It was the pork meat not legs (hooves) that caused gas in our case. No other meat has done this.

 

I used to feed fur-on pig and sheep legs (with hooves) but had a bad scare with a partial obstruction (that passed) but had two days of terror nursing a dog I thought might need major surgery, could parish, and was very unwell (and looked at me with big pleading eyes). It ended well, and the vet was involved. But never again will hooves/legs be on the menu.

 

The raw diet has gone so well, but that was the one moment that could have been a big #@%! up. Never again.

 

Bill

 

I don't know. What made me angry was that they were labelled "mackerel". When we opened the box, they were clearly some kind of freshwater fish. We talked about returning them and showed them the box and the fish and did get our money back, but they couldn't take the fish back since it had left the store. So now, we have milkfish that I have no idea what to do with other than maybe bait, I guess. 

 

I bet that was really scary! I think any diet can go wrong. Our Dalmatian used to suck up her kibble and choked more than once. A raw fed Dachshund had to have a deer rib pulled back up by the vet because the little thing swallowed it whole and it was scratching up her stomach. It's just a risk any creature takes when ingesting food. It sure can turn you off of something though. I know someone who won't feed turkey necks because their dog choked. Here, turkey necks are our main source of bone. We, ourselves, have had issues with Buck swallowing them whole like a freaking python which is why we pack them together tightly and freeze them. That way, by the time they get one separated from the bunch, they are pretty crunched up already.

I'm sure most people have something they won't feed because of a bad experience. 



#28
Spy Car

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I don't know. What made me angry was that they were labelled "mackerel". When we opened the box, they were clearly some kind of freshwater fish. We talked about returning them and showed them the box and the fish and did get our money back, but they couldn't take the fish back since it had left the store. So now, we have milkfish that I have no idea what to do with other than maybe bait, I guess. 

 

I bet that was really scary! I think any diet can go wrong. Our Dalmatian used to suck up her kibble and choked more than once. A raw fed Dachshund had to have a deer rib pulled back up by the vet because the little thing swallowed it whole and it was scratching up her stomach. It's just a risk any creature takes when ingesting food. It sure can turn you off of something though. I know someone who won't feed turkey necks because their dog choked. Here, turkey necks are our main source of bone. We, ourselves, have had issues with Buck swallowing them whole like a freaking python which is why we pack them together tightly and freeze them. That way, by the time they get one separated from the bunch, they are pretty crunched up already.

I'm sure most people have something they won't feed because of a bad experience. 

 

You have every right to be angry. I think the store should have taken back the fish, since was falsely labeled. That would be on them, whether you left the store (or not).

 

Our incident was scary. My Vizsla and I are almost too bonded. They call Vs "velcro dogs" for a good reason. He is so beautiful and doing so well eating raw (simply stunning), so the thought that I might have done him in with a bad choice (and I'm generally super-conservative with "rec" bones) made me sick. Still does a little.

 

Bill



#29
Iorveth

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You have every right to be angry. I think the store should have taken back the fish, since was falsely labeled. That would be on them, whether you left the store (or not).

 

Our incident was scary. My Vizsla and I are almost too bonded. They call Vs "velcro dogs" for a good reason. He is so beautiful and doing so well eating raw (simply stunning), so the thought that I might have done him in with a bad choice (and I'm generally super-conservative with "rec" bones) made me sick. Still does a little.

 

Bill

 

 

I absolutely agree. I mean, we got our money back, yea, but now we have these fish taking up valuable freezer space. It's not a store we normally go to. Our normal one knows us and we're on a first name basis with a lot of the employees, especially in the meat department since they hold our turkey necks back there. When we pick it up, they just go ahead and order us a new one. We do all of our grocery shopping there and, because it's around the corner from the barn, we are there quite often getting things. I guarantee they would have bent over backwards to make us happy if we'd bought the fish there. 

The other one... Well, we keep an eye on other stores for things like the mackerel. That was the second time we've bought mackerel there this summer and the first box was indeed a box of beautiful mackerel. Just some nice fish. We'll be checking every box of fish before we leave the store from now on.

 

I would be willing to bet that I feel the same way about Iorveth that you do about your Vizsla. You love every other dog you have or have had, but this dog is different. I sometimes wonder if I have an unhealthy amount of love for this dog because he's just so special to me. It's unlike anything I have ever had with another dog. He's that dog that I never wonder what he's thinking because I know. When he asks me for something, its rare that I don't know exactly what he's asking for. The line of communication is just so easy. There have been some things that have happened that have had me in tears like the time we thought he got cooked chicken bones. Things that, like you, make me sick to think about what could have happened. I get a little weepy on every birthday (he'll be 3 in November) because it's another year gone. Losing Dude was hard, but having his empty space in the family really made me think about how facing the same thing with Iorveth one day is inevitable.

I don't blame you for avoiding something like that. Whether it truly is something dangerous for raw fed dogs to eat or it was a freak thing doesn't matter when something goes wrong with that special dog.


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#30
BoxerMum

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Grocery store has beef ribs on sale this week- are beef "bones" regardless of the cut too much for dogs to handle? They also had pork ribs on sale as well...so I'll stock up in both.

#31
Iorveth

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Grocery store has beef ribs on sale this week- are beef "bones" regardless of the cut too much for dogs to handle? They also had pork ribs on sale as well...so I'll stock up in both.

 

Personally, I don't feed beef bones, because my dogs are the kind who will just try to chomp right through them. Other people love them. I won't take the risk with mine, but many people do love them.



#32
naturalfeddogs

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Beef ribs are too dense for mine to get through, so I don't feed them. I don't want to risk broken/cracked teeth.


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#33
TRDmom

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I don't know if its what you're getting at (or not) but my reading of the pertinent passages in the Torah and Talmud convince me that pork for dogs is halachaically sound.

 

I have my own struggles with swine.

 

Bill (not a rabbi, not actually Jewish, but Jewish adjacent :D

 

 

LOL Yeah, I don't believe any ideology forbids a canine from consuming swine. :D  I personally don't want pork in my house or to handle it, so that's why its a "no go."



#34
Spy Car

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LOL Yeah, I don't believe any ideology forbids a canine from consuming swine. :D  I personally don't want pork in my house or to handle it, so that's why its a "no go."

 

But the observant still can't mix meat and dairy for dogs (it's a prohibited "benefit" to the person) where one can benefit from swine. It's allowed. Interesting, yes?

 

Gives a whole new meaning to kosher dogs :)

 

Bill


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#35
TRDmom

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Gives a whole new meaning to kosher dogs :)

 

LOL That it does.


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#36
BoxerMum

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Here I am again! I feel like I'm doing something wrong but Duke just isn't getting use to the beef, and we had two choking incidents! Stool today poured out of him, do I need to go back to square one offer his chicken and just add one oz at a time of beef? And I feel terrible he chocked not once but twice on the beef! The one time almost about to get him to the vets it was frightening , but after a bit of luck, thank god we got the chunk out!
The beef that his been getting have been cuts from a butt roast, do I need to cut them itty bitty or what? His just not chewing them and he gulps them down... I thought they were big enough that he would chew them but not so.

Feeling a bit deflated, thought things were going so well, but with the canon butt and choking I'm worried.. Hopefully someone can help..:(

#37
Spy Car

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Here I am again! I feel like I'm doing something wrong but Duke just isn't getting use to the beef, and we had two choking incidents! Stool today poured out of him, do I need to go back to square one offer his chicken and just add one oz at a time of beef? And I feel terrible he chocked not once but twice on the beef! The one time almost about to get him to the vets it was frightening , but after a bit of luck, thank god we got the chunk out!
The beef that his been getting have been cuts from a butt roast, do I need to cut them itty bitty or what? His just not chewing them and he gulps them down... I thought they were big enough that he would chew them but not so.

Feeling a bit deflated, thought things were going so well, but with the canon butt and choking I'm worried.. Hopefully someone can help.. :(

 

Did you feed chicken (a bone in piece) with the beef?

 

Bill



#38
BoxerMum

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Yes he is getting bone in at each meal.

#39
Spy Car

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Yes he is getting bone in at each meal.

 

Is he chewing those well? Not gulping? Dropping back to chicken sounds like a good idea. Let him get stable. Then try something other than beef.

 

There is much to be said for hand feeding when starting out. It reduces the choking hazards, promotes good chewing, and heightens the bond of dog and human (while building bite inhibition). 

 

Sorry you've had a rough start. It will get better.

 

Bill



#40
TRDmom

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It sounds like he's trying to gulp rather than chew. My boxer was a gulper/swallower and would only chew when she really had to. Feeding large pieces (e.g. whole chicken, beef heart, ribs) and frozen meat will help teach him to chew.






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