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Pmr Newbie

pmr raw fed raw newbie

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#1
djacks

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Hello all, 

 

I am in need of a little clarity with the PMS feeding. 

We picked up our Doberman Pinscher puppy last Friday and he's 12 weeks old. 

 

Our breeder informed us that he had been eating raw and on a diet of Bravo Chicken/Turkey and ground chicken with the bones.

When we first got home we used the Bravo chicken which we picked up and introduced him to a chicken leg with bone that night, (which I know now should have been chicken wing, neck or feet? Is that correct? The bones are hollow and easier?) I also took the skin off (I leave it on now) the chicken leg and it was not frozen. We also cut up some of the legs which I know now was a bad idea as well (this causes splintering of bones?) I totally supervise his eating, sometimes I even hold it for him to help. 

 

We see a vet tomorrow and I am unsure if I can trust them to be on my side about raw feeding so I wanted to come to the community for questions first. 

 

Last night while feeding dinner and changing a few things, he choked on a piece of chicken, and also got a huge frozen piece stuck to the roof of his mouth, I immediately got scared/discouraged. This morning without anything else to feed, I went with Bravo and held a frozen chicken leg for him to gnaw on. 

 

Should he be eating frozen? Should he be eating larger pieces

Any advice on cutting meats vs him crunching bones himself? 

Keep using hollow bone chicken for now? Frozen? Wings, Feet and Neck? 

 

I am very much dedicated to keeping this diet but I don't want any scares. 

 

Also, I feed him a frozen cube of bone broth that he never seems interested in, should I keep this as a broth instead of freezing? Cubes seem too large to grab hold of. He also gets turmeric paste throughout the day with meals. Should he be eating anything else? Unsure of how the balance is with Bravo? Should I start to remove the bravo and stick to just PMR? What else could I be giving him to supplement? He eats about 5.3oz per meal, can that all be chicken for now? 

 

I'm sorry for all the questions but I really want to stop at the store tonight and make sure I pick up the right things. I was so worried last night after he choked. 


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#2
Iorveth

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This is where "KISS" comes in. Keep It Simple, Stupid! It's something my geometry teacher always used to tell us when we overcomplicated things :)

 

I've now raised two raw fed puppies and you'll be shocked to find out just how resilient and tough they are. Dobe pups are about the size of my guys when they were babies. I am very familiar with the breed as I was raised with two (two black and tan girls with the second one being a meismark with a little white star on her chest between the rust).

 

Go see if you can find the red bags of chicken quarters at a Walmart or some grocery store. Gold Leaf brand, I believe. Or any unenhanced chicken quarters will do. For now, you'll just hand your pup a quarter and call it good. I let puppies eat as much as they want as long as they are not eating themselves sick or undereating. Check out this site's Getting Started Guide for info on how much to feed and how to progress. Feeding dogs really isn't that complicated, but we make it scary. I was terrified to start feeding raw 4 years ago and now I look back and can't believe how much I scared myself over it! You'll feel the same way once you get the hang of this. There are different methods, like Spy Car likes to do more balance in a day while I do balance over time (a week's time or so) and he likes to introduce organs sooner while I wait until most of the proteins have been introduced, but, in the end, both his and my dogs are healthy and happy and yours will be too.

Do be prepared to either tell your vet that the way you feed your dog is your choice or to find a new vet. I got lucky and the on base vet we take our dogs to just happened to be a raw feeding vet who's fed this way for almost two decades. However, from what I understand, not many are like that and I am so not looking forward to the vet hunt we'll have to do in about a year and a half! She does have a civilian practice, but she says the clinic charges a lot.



#3
naturalfeddogs

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Legs are fine, just remember you want a large enough cut that he will HAVE  to chew. Necks and wings may be too small.Try whole leg quarters. Sometimes it takes a little bit for them to learn to chew, and to help them you can either hold the piece for them, or use a kitchen mallet or hammer and smash it some. Either way, as he gets better at chewing, back off holding/hammering. 

 

I don't often feed frozen myself, but it does work good if you have a gulper to help slow them down, or teething puppies.



#4
djacks

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Thanks guys! I picked up some chicken backs and wings last night. He ate a whole drumstick last night as well and he did good! I'm glad I'm not the only one that started off all crazy about this. I will start to cut back on the Bravo! and use only chicken for the next week or so and move on to turkey pieces as suggested to incorporate more proteins. 

I'm glad this isn't as stressful as it seems because the last few days have been crazy. I'll stick with the frozen since he is a growing pup. 

 

Thanks for your help!



#5
Iorveth

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See, and unlike NFD, I feed almost all of my guys' meals frozen. There really are a lot of ways you can do this. I feed frozen because I do have a gulper. My hound likes to do his python impression and force food down whole so we freeze. Because of him, I think it's just become easier on us to feed almost everything straight from the freezer. Well, bone in anyway. Feeding frozen helps a dog like Buck take his time and saw things down to manageable pieces. 

And no, you are definitely not the first one to panic over raw feeding! We spend our whole lives being told bones and raw meat are deadly and dangerous when the first is only when cooked and the second is just wrong. Watching videos and looking at pictures helped because it enabled me to see dogs actually eating raw and not dying or suffering. It is blatant proof that dogs can and do eat this way and thrive.



#6
djacks

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Does anyone have advice on whole raw brown eggs with the shell? We cracked one and gave him one when he had some loose stool and I researched and they said egg shells helped harden stools. He did fine with it. 

 

Also, at this time is it important to obsess over the numbers? I know when I look up the ratios and such for his age and weight on PerfectlyRawsome.com it gives me these numbers:

Daily Muscle Meat: 1.6#

Daily Raw Bones 0.2#

Daily Liver #0.1

Daily Total Weight 2# 

 

He isn't on liver yet so I assume it's okay to stick with just chicken for now and just use the Total Weight Number for feeding? 

 

I feel so much more confident that this isn't like a chemistry project anymore. lol



#7
Spy Car

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When my dog was a very young pup eating a thawed neck or drumstick was a workout. That changed. Chewing and chomping made the jaw and neck muscles very strong. So I tried frozen. That revitalized the workout. Now I wish I had a vat of liquid nitrogen :D

 

As they work they get strong.

 

Hand feeding, while a little gross for some folks, has an array of benefits—not the least of which is helping to assure the dog chews rather than gulps (which is vital to reduce chocking risks—but it also is a powerful tool in reducing resource guarding and promoting bite inhibition. By giving, taking, and re-giving hand held food the dog earns you are the source of the good thing and what it means to share.

 

Not to cause stress in a thread that is (wisely) counseling you to de-stress, but if you are adding wings and backs, I'd advocate balancing such things with significant amounts of boneless meat like great. Too much bone is not polite. Chicken back and wings are very bony.

 

As Ivoreth has mentioned, I'd suggest adding very small amounts of organs (and at this stage chicken liver) to both get the vital nutrition to a growing pup, and to get the dog accustomed to organs. Feeding organs over the long term is not optional. So reducing the odds of food aversions (which I believe feeding early help accomplish) is a wise IMO. Mine may be a minority position (so far).

 

Have fun. Don't stress.

 

Bill



#8
djacks

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I hand feed him sometimes, he does really well with it. I love that he's so good about it. I was planning on giving him the chicken back that I got last night but was worried about how bony it was. That stuff is crazy cheap! 

 

Apologies, Spy Car but what kind of boneless meat are you talking about? I will add this with the chicken liver that I pick up tomorrow. 



#9
Iorveth

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My dogs don't tend to eat the egg shell when I give them whole eggs so I crack the egg, give them the inside, and toss the shells into a container. When the container gets full, I bring them into a coarse powder and save them for a rainy day where I discover that I let our bone in sources run out but they can't have another day of boneless without it giving them soft poops. In those occasions, I mix the egg shells into the boneless meal to help keep poops firm. It's a bandaid that works in a pinch. I don't know about egg shells nutrition-wise though.

And yes, as Spy Car has mentioned, adding things that are super bony might have more of an effect than you intended. While most new dogs can handle multiple super bony meals of a new protein, you'll find out just how soon that bone content can change a dog's poop! Some need more bone and some need less and you'll figure it out as you go along and he gets further into the diet.
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#10
Spy Car

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I hand feed him sometimes, he does really well with it. I love that he's so good about it. I was planning on giving him the chicken back that I got last night but was worried about how bony it was. That stuff is crazy cheap! 

 

Apologies, Spy Car but what kind of boneless meat are you talking about? I will add this with the chicken liver that I pick up tomorrow. 

 

Since you are dealing with chicken at the moment something like breast meat could balance the bone. Chicken hearts introduced slowly are good too. Were you feeding beef it could be heart or other muscle meat. Chicken backs are not attractive to me, for being so bony. Thighs and drumsticks have a higher meat to bone ratio than backs, but still exceed the 10% bone content that is considered optimal (and by more than 100%). Going a little bone heavy reduces the odds of loose stools when starting out, but going overboard causes it own problems. You don't want an assault to the digestive track due to feeding too much bone.

 

I'd use the backs to make stock, and feed a meater part to the dog, to be quite frank.

 

With the chicken liver I'd start with very small pieces and work up incrementally.

 

Bill


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#11
djacks

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Just got back from the Vet and this was our first time with this one. I have a few that I have used and I like but many people recommended this one so I went with it. 

Bad idea, she is completely against raw feeding, she said it had no nutritional value and told my pup when he kissed her that he had salmonella kisses. Let's just say, I'm not too happy with her. Anyone else have this problem? Should I stay and just ignore it or find one that isn't so HIGHLY opinionated but non-raw choices. She even went as far to recommend the normal holistic brands that I know well, I fed my pups Nutro for YEARS. But she immediately lost me when she said Pro Plan as well as Science Diet works. I personally didn't like her, and I think that's important that I like her at least. I worked in pet stores for over 5 years, and that doesn't sound like much but I would NEVER feed my dog Science Diet, let alone Pro Plan. Never.   


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#12
Iorveth

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A vet that doesn't know that both raw and kibble run the risk of salmonella...?

I'd find a new one. It's one thing to express your opinion as the dog's health care professional, but it's another to be 100% wrong about the nutritional value. She also sounds unprofessional with the salmonella kisses part. Sounds kind of passive aggressive to me. I wouldn't be able to trust someone like that to make a proper diagnosis. She honestly sounds like the kind that would blame any issue on the diet if something went wrong and you needed her professional assessment of your dog.

 

If it were me, I'd keep shopping. Your vet could potentially have to save your dog's life one day and I would want someone I could trust. I trust my vet. I don't think I could trust the one you saw today based on what you've said here.



#13
Iorveth

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By the way, is Corso from the June 9th litter? I just looked up his mama and the first link to me to the ETA page for the litter. Nice looking pair of Dobes there :)



#14
djacks

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Yes he is! His father is absolutely stunning. We met him and his grandmother and great grandmother when we picked him up at Monarch's place on Saturday. He's going to be a big boy. The breeder said he is very much show quality but he is missing 2 teeth, teeth they think will eventually come in anyways... :)

 

As for the Vet, we found a holistic vet in Boca Raton after some snooping and he is a previous owner of blue does as well as great danes. 

Apparently he is okay with the raw feeding as long as you are knowledgable. He sounds like a great alternative. 


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#15
Iorveth

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It's worth a try. We travel all the way across the Puget Sound so that we could keep going to our vet. It's definitely worth it when you find a good one.I hope this one proves to be at least tolerable. You don't have to love your vet, but you have to be able to respect and trust their opinion.

 

I wish I knew the name of the kennel our first Dobe came from. I was little so I only remember meeting her dad, an enormous (but within the standard) male that was just the nicest dog. We went back several times because she was nearby and helped with the aftercare of the crop. I named her Angel... I don't know why, but I named our giant, female Rottweiler that everyone thought was a male at first glance... Tiny. Why they let me name the dogs, I have no idea. I was a little older when Angel had died and we got our second Dobe. I think I did a better job with her name. She was Xena. My grandfather has two littermate girls now, but I've never met them. I'd moved up to Washington a couple of years before Xena died so they didn't buy the two new girls while I was there. I don't even know their names... I think one is named Duchess.

 

I would love another Dobe. Problem is that people are just too afraid of them. My husband is in the Navy and we rent from wonderful people who, because they know us (they are also our neighbors) and know how we own dogs, would probably let us bring home any breed we wanted. I've been tempted since we lost our Old Man Collie a couple of months ago, but I just don't want to until we own our own place. While we have it good here and we just renewed our lease until my husband's military contract is up, things happen and we don't own this house or the property we live on and could easily have to uproot and move. having dogs and renting is hard enough as it is. Adding a breed that people can't see past the wrapper of just isn't worth it at this point. When we're ready, though, I have a friend that I met through Blueticks (she co-owns and handles two bitches from Buck's breeder and got them their GCh) who breeds and handles some top notch Dobes. The biggest question then becomes black or red? Hahaha. I've always had blacks, but the reds sure are handsome. You can't beat the crispness of a black and tan, but the red is such a gorgeous color too. I think I'd just pick a pairing and then take whichever color was painted on the puppy that was best.

 

Anyhow, I wouldn't worry too much about his teeth. Mind you, my guy's teeth genetics are very different from yours because we've got the hairless gene linked to the dentition, but Iorveth didn't have puppy canines at all, top or bottom. All four adult canines came in without issue. Even he doesn't turn out to be show quality as he matures, there is still so much you can do with him. I bought my youngest two for the ring, but Buck just isn't what they are looking for in the ring (he's from hunting stock that tends to be on the leaner side) and Iorveth just hates everything about showing. The lack of enthusiasm was just depressing to watch. Other things, though, he puts everything he's got into. If the ring is your plan, I hope it works out! I hope to show my next pup, but I guess we'll see!



#16
Spy Car

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My vet is the owner of my Vizsla Chester's Grand-sire (who she imported from Hungary) and a half-sibling. She is an outstanding (highly intelligent) veterinarian and expert with the breed.

 

She was skeptical. She was mostly concerned (before she got to know me) that a self-concocted diet might result in imbalances. As we've gotten to know each other she's gained confidence that I'm highly attuned to the nutritional requirements, and she knows Chester looks simply magnificent. Really, perfection.

 

I hope to "convert" her via a demonstration effect. I've seen other dogs from Chester's litter and slightly older half-sibilings. Their conditions do not compare (not even slightly). He glistens and the teeth gleam. The others feel dry and the teeth are already yellowing and becoming tartar stained. She notices.

 

I expect the relationship to evolve. 

 

Bill



#17
Iorveth

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I wish I was in contact with Iorveth's littermates. I know of one who is in Russia and we talked briefly when they were still young, but there is only so much we can do with the language barrier (although I am in the process of learning Russian for other, unrelated reasons) and I think I found a photo of another dog that is at least related to him (again in Russia, but is not the one I've spoken with). That dog looks so eerily like Iorveth that I saw it and thought, "Wait, when did I take that picture?"

It's unfortunate that, being such a rare breed, one litter so, so often ends up, at the minimum, scattered all over the country. Iorveth's litter is an international litter. It would be fascinating to compare how they matured. Iorveth is so muscular and healthy that I am confident that he would be one of the best (if not the best) looking pup. I am much more familiar with most of the major players in the Xolo world now and friends with many of them so I hope to be able to keep some kind of track of the littermates of my next Xolo.

Iorveth will be three in November and the only plaque he has is a little bit of yellowing on one canine that will be easily taken care of when I find a new source for pork necks. Buck turned 4 in March and he is in the same place. Just a little bit that will disappear when we get an appropriate meal. Our vet saw Iorveth in February and Buck last month and is thrilled with them. 

Obviously, Iorveth doesn't have a shiny coat, but he never did have the acne issue other owners complain about during his "teenage" phase. Rarely does he have any blemishes. Of course, good skin comes from genetics and skin care too, but nutrition plays a major role. Buck, being blue ticked, only shines on his solid black patches, but the rest of him sparkles. He looks like someone sprinkled glitter on him.



#18
naturalfeddogs

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Does anyone have advice on whole raw brown eggs with the shell? We cracked one and gave him one when he had some loose stool and I researched and they said egg shells helped harden stools. He did fine with it. 

 

Also, at this time is it important to obsess over the numbers? I know when I look up the ratios and such for his age and weight on PerfectlyRawsome.com it gives me these numbers:

Daily Muscle Meat: 1.6#

Daily Raw Bones 0.2#

Daily Liver #0.1

Daily Total Weight 2# 

 

He isn't on liver yet so I assume it's okay to stick with just chicken for now and just use the Total Weight Number for feeding? 

 

I feel so much more confident that this isn't like a chemistry project anymore.

As long as you are feeding bone in meats, you don't need egg shells. The bone is plenty of calcium, and will firm the poops. You don't want constipation. I feed eggs sometimes, just not the shells. 

 

With that said though, the shells are good for older dogs or dogs who can't chew bone well. The shells can be ground to make it easier for them as a calcium supplement.



#19
TRDmom

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Welcome!

 

It sounds like the second vet you mentioned would be worth visiting. Its best to have a vet who respects your decisions, especially about diet. As Iorveth said, she could potentially blame health issues on the diet rather than really investigating. That's something I wouldn't want to risk--especially since she was so blatant with you about her opposition to raw feeding. 

 

Meat and bone have protein, vitamins and minerals. Look at a nature program following a wolf pack. They hunt, kill, and eat animals (meat, bone, organs). How many of those wolves drop over dead from salmonella poisoning? Dogs aren't that far removed from wolves. And as for salmonella... what are most of those dog kibble recalls about? Can someone remind me (j/k)? Also--kibble fed dogs have some foul smelling mouths (my boxer's was horrible!), wouldn't want to be "kissed" by them! Oh well, maybe she (the vet) will learn one day.


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#20
Spy Car

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While I'd be happy to have a vet who supports raw feeding, I'd prefer one who is slightly skeptical (but a great vet) to one who employs useless homeopathic treatments and other forms of woo. I think science supports the superiority of feeding dogs a diet they are shaped by nature to trive on. Some "holistic" vets concern me when they embrace pseudo-science and quackery.

Double-edged sword sometimes.

Bill
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