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40 replies to this topic

#1
zeusthedapple

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Hi,

 

Sorry, I hope it's perfectly alright to post a new topic here. I've been studying up on raw for months now. Today, my order (chicken necks, chicken gizzards, boneless chicken thighs, chicken trim, turkey hearts, turkey gizzards, ground salmon, pork hearts, green tripe, beef heart chunks, and "monster mash" (organ mix grind)) has arrived. Zeus, my 6lb Chi had a chicken neck for breakfast (he eats twice a day). I feel like I'm complicating things for myself. But I would like some help as far as conceptualizing what meals will look like for him. Obv 80-10-10, but I'm thinking I want to balance each meal by day instead of balancing over week (at least for now). And since he's just starting out, is it safe to assume that until he's finally eating organs, that his meals may seem inbalanced? Also, if I am balancing out by every meal, is it safe to assume he is eating organ every meal? Blah, I just think I'm overwhelming myself unnecessarily. I would love some reassurement and help with this. Sorry, if this topic is out of place or considered pointless. Hope you can help. Thanks!

 

Best,

Ashley


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#2
TRDmom

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Hello Ashley! PMR feeders do not all have the same approach. Some aim for the weekly balance while others try to make each meal balanced. Some delay organs, others try to add them from the beginning.

 

If you're aiming for balanced at every meal, then yes, organ would be in each meal. As for me, I usually offer one full meal each week as organ only (e.g. liver). I say "usually," because I don't do the same thing every day/week/month. What and how I feed also depends on what we have available. Beef liver is easily given as a meal, whereas rabbit organs are soo small that I give them as part of a meal with meat and bone. So when I give rabbit, its easy to cut the rabbit in half and have organs in each half (e.g. heart and lungs in one half; kidneys, liver, reproductive organs in the other portion). Multiple meals (at least two) would be fed that way for the week.

 

I hope I haven't been more confusing! Starting out, chicken necks will be fine. You could try adding very small amounts of organ and see how its handled. Some animals experience "cannon butt" and others don't. Good luck!


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#3
zeusthedapple

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Hey, thanks for getting in touch!

 

That's an interesting way to go about it, definitely doesn't sound confusing! :) Haha, I certainly hope I don't have a dog with cannon butt! Would giving him duck feet in exchange for the chicken neck after like two days, be acceptable? I feel like he shouldn't have an issue... He was given a duck head before he even started raw, ate every single bit of it (including the brain) and had no issue whatsoever. Also, it almost feels like I'm giving him too much bone?? Obviously, check his poop... and starting out I hear it's supposed to be slightly more bone to help. I say that because he should eat roughly 2.4oz daily and today he had a chicken neck (1.5oz) and chicken trim (.9oz) Is that how it should be? I guess it just "feels" harder since he does eat so little, so portions seem so tiny.


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#4
jagger

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For your little guy, i'd use chicken organs for now. See if he's willing to eat raw liver, ours will pick it up and toss it at the nearest wall. We have to freeze liver for him to eat it.

 

We generally buy a single meat, cut it up and freeze it. Then feed organs as treats. Other times, one big shop, bag individual meals and we'll add the organs to individual meals.



#5
zeusthedapple

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Hey @Jagger! So do you think chicken gizzards would suffice? I just ordered a bunch to last him 6months so the only liver he's getting is in a monster mash grind. (So just beef organ blend//until I order more of course) But I don't see any reason why my boy wouldn't eat the liver, he eats everything he finds. He is not picky AT ALL with food, to the point where he will try to eat things that are completely inedible. <_< I'm pretty much planning on giving all of his food at least half thawed because he's absolutely a gulper. 



#6
jagger

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gissard is fine, it's basically just meat anyhow. If you really want to slow him down, try feeding a meal frozen. We will freeze meaty beef bones and give them frozen, keeps him busy for quite a while and really cleans the teeth.



#7
zeusthedapple

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Cool, thanks! Yeah gizzards count as muscle meat anyway, right? Yeah he's going to need them frozen. I know he will swallow chicken wings, so he can't have that. Sometimes he chews the chicken necks all the way, then other times the last bite he thinks he can just swallow it... Swear, this dog is trying to give me a heart attack.



#8
naturalfeddogs

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Gizzards are organs. Dogs don't chew the way we do, it's just more of a chomp chomp and down, so sometimes the end pieces do seem to get gulped. It's probably chewed more than you think.

#9
zeusthedapple

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Right. So, I'm to feed gizzards as his organ count? But hearts are organs and we're counting them as muscle meat, right? Sorry, if these seem like such stupid questions. I thought I had it figured out, ha. 80% - (chicken gizzards, turkey gizzards, turkey hearts, pork hearts, beef hearts, tripe). So these organs should not count as my 80% or do? ///



#10
TRDmom

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Right. So, I'm to feed gizzards as his organ count? But hearts are organs and we're counting them as muscle meat, right? Sorry, if these seem like such stupid questions. I thought I had it figured out, ha. 80% - (chicken gizzards, turkey gizzards, turkey hearts, pork hearts, beef hearts, tripe). So these organs should not count as my 80% or do? ///

 

As it was explained to me, the 10% organ is broken down further into 5% any organ and 5% liver. Others have said that "hard" organs count as muscle meat and "squishy" organs count as organ. I don't worry about it. I just make sure to give meat, bone, and organs every week. Good luck!



#11
naturalfeddogs

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Organs are secreting. Meaning filtering etc...... Heart is a muscle, not organ (nutritionally speaking). Although all organs are beneficial, liver and kidney are the two main ones for nutritional reasons. Don't stress over all the percentages. They are just guidelines, nothing more. Some dogs need more of something, some less. Just feed proteins in variety, and through in the organs once a week, or weekly in smaller doses. Worrying too much over percentages can easily complicate the whole thing and make it much harder than it needs to be.

#12
zeusthedapple

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Alright. Thanks @naturalfeddogs!! (Jenny) :D

 

I'm trying to keep it simple. So, I could do like daily: give him all his muscle, with bone every few days and then maybe like one organ meal a week? Does that sound somewhat manageable to work around?



#13
Spy Car

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Alright. Thanks @naturalfeddogs!! (Jenny) :D

 

I'm trying to keep it simple. So, I could do like daily: give him all his muscle, with bone every few days and then maybe like one organ meal a week? Does that sound somewhat manageable to work around?

 

I feed more in line with your original plan: balancing meals vs balancing over time (other than diversifying species over time). There is no wrong or right answer to this. For me, I find it easy for me to feed small amounts of liver (approx. 10% of a meal) every other day. On the "off days" it could be kidney, sweetbreads, lamb melts (spleen), or other. This makes it easy for me not to get behind on feeding organs (which are vital).

 

For the dog, having small amounts of organs daily (instead on a big meal of, say, liver) seems to minimize any potential GI upset (mine has none). I figure the same is so with bone and meat. I feed a different assortment daily, but do try to balance meals for bone. meat, fat, and organs.

 

We each find our own styles.

 

Best wishes!

 

Bill



#14
zeusthedapple

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Thank you! Yeah I like the idea of doing the 10% organ each meal. I will agree with you, that will probably be what I do. But it feels "complicated" having to do the 10% bone because he is such a small dog and will only eat like max 3oz a day, one chicken neck or duck foot is like half is meal. Is that right??

 

P.S. Something I forgot, since his dinner tonight was to be chicken gizzards and I want him to add a little more weight, I gave him like three gizzard pieces. For him being a 6lb dog, was that too much? It won't cause any irreversible damage?

(like how too much liver is a bad thing). Blah I'm just a worrywart.



#15
naturalfeddogs

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No irreversable damage. You have to feed A LOT everyday for some time to get that. More than what a dog would probably even eat willingly on their own. I'm pretty sure no one is going to feed enough to cause something like that. Did you feed three whole gizzards, or just cut one into pieces? If you feel you gave more than you should have, then you can wait a couple of days before giving any more, if you want.

#16
zeusthedapple

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Ok, thanks! Ha. Yeah 3 whole chicken gizzards. Right, I'm thinking just waiting a couple days before giving more.


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#17
Spy Car

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Thank you! Yeah I like the idea of doing the 10% organ each meal. I will agree with you, that will probably be what I do. But it feels "complicated" having to do the 10% bone because he is such a small dog and will only eat like max 3oz a day, one chicken neck or duck foot is like half is meal. Is that right??

 

 

 

You might split boney pieces before you pack and freeze them. Turkey necks might work well too (because they are thicker around but you could cut between vertebrae. The "drumbeats" (from the chicken wings) leap to mind too. But yeah, your challenge will be how to get bone-in pieces into meals having such a small dog.

 

You will need to see how Zeus does if you don't balance meals, and go for a boney meal and a boneless meal (balance over time). 

 

I saw the picture. Zeus is so cute!

 

Bill



#18
zeusthedapple

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Thank you! He's a little troublemaker! I think I might try to go for turkey necks and cut them in half. Since he is absolutely a gulper and even freezing food hardly slows him down, if I cut a chicken neck in half, he will just swallow it, frozen or not.



#19
Spy Car

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Thank you! He's a little troublemaker! I think I might try to go for turkey necks and cut them in half. Since he is absolutely a gulper and even freezing food hardly slows him down, if I cut a chicken neck in half, he will just swallow it, frozen or not.

 

That's why I think the turkey necks might be better. Even a sectioned one would be hard to swallow (I hope). 

 

I wonder if Cornish Game Hen pieces would work?

 

Bill



#20
zeusthedapple

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It's certainly worth a try!

 

Since Cornish is much smaller, which pieces would you suggest?






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