Jump to content

Welcome to Prey Model Raw
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Limited Vaccines

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#1
amkuska

amkuska

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 87 posts

Hey everyone,

 

I've heard a lot about "limited vaccinations" for dogs, and I believe it helps their health a great deal. Unfortunately it's another one of those subjects where there are a thousand pieces of information being flung about and nothing really clear.

 

How do you handle limited vaccines (if any)?


  • exitmefrery likes this

#2
naturalfeddogs

naturalfeddogs

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,280 posts
  • LocationTalladega, Alabama

Dogs fed a natural, raw diet do have higher immune systems. Their bodies are working as they should, and are pretty resistant to being sick. Mine all had only puppy vaccines because they weren't naturally raised on raw diets. But, they have never had a vaccine since and never will. Vaccines are nothing more than the diesese itself and chemicals being injected into the body. There more of that that gets pumped into them, the less the natural immune system works. In fact, they have NO immune system for about the first two weeks after the vaccine. If I was ever told I had to have proof of vaccines for any reason, I would have titers done instead to prove immunity, assuming titers are accepted for the situation. 

 

It's also probably a good idea to take trips out and about in small amounts at a time in public places to possibly be exposed to different stuff to help to build that immunity. 


  • exitmefrery likes this

#3
Prey Model Raw

Prey Model Raw

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 1,661 posts

Vaccines are always a controversial topic, and I admit I am still learning as well. 

 

What I've done in the past is: 

 

3 rounds of puppy vaccines at 8, 12 and 16 weeks

 

Rabies at 1 year

 

No further vaccines

 

I don't know what I will do in the future though with Panda's litter of puppies. I still haven't figured that out, as it's hard for me to do NO vaccines at all like some natural rearing breeders do (and they swear by it). I'd love to hear more input on vaccines by experienced natural rearing breeders :)


  • naturalfeddogs, GimMom and exitmefrery like this

#4
Britt0325

Britt0325

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts
  • LocationJersey
I've just started following a limited vaccine protocol with my dog.

I just had to get his rabies and I got a special vaccine for that, the only one made I think, without thimerosal.

He won't be getting any more vaccines except for the rabies every 3 years and I might try to get him off with a health exemption for the next one since he'll be 11.

Only titer testing every 3 years. The beginning of next year will be his first titer and it'll be his 3rd year without the DHPP vaccine. If he ever need any vaccines they'll be single vaccines not combos.

Since they've discontinued making the single vaccines I was interested in I'll probably have to look into it more when that time comes. Right now I know there is one vaccine with only the distemper and parvo which isn't too bad compared to the 4 combo and some have more then that, like the DHLPP. So unnecessary.

Okay so I just finished reading this:

http://www.dogsnatur...og-virus-fatal/

It's about the dangers of vaccines but also that virus that is started to effect dogs and killed dogs in Cali and Ohio.

Reading that vaccines, both human and animal, can be contaminated with other viruses scares me. I'm not sure I'll ever get a vaccine again and I'm not sure what I'll do in the case of my dog having a low titer result. This Circovirus thing is just rally strange and frightening and who knows what other things could develop with the use of vaccines. That's just insane.
  • exitmefrery likes this

#5
blacksheep

blacksheep

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts

I do a full set of puppy vaccines when they come home (whatever age that might be.)  Rabies is done at 6 months, a year later, then every three years.  The only reason I do rabies this way is because I understand most animals will bite out of fear and its required by law.  A rabies vaccine is a life saver if an animal gets hurt/is scared and bites.  My kids will be getting DHLPP and kennel cough next year because we're hoping to travel for quite some time and all facilities require the full set.  

 

The vaccine topic is the same as the raw fed topic.  They have the evidence but people like to sue.  If a doctor suggests a custom schedule and their patient comes back with parvo, the doctor can be sued (unless there was quite a bit of paperwork signed prior to.)  Most vets do titers instead.

 

Cats are a whole nother story.  Cat rabies vaccines are a little different and the whole thing is controversial. 


  • Prey Model Raw and exitmefrery like this

#6
naturalfeddogs

naturalfeddogs

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,280 posts
  • LocationTalladega, Alabama

Vaccines are always a controversial topic, and I admit I am still learning as well. 

 

What I've done in the past is: 

 

3 rounds of puppy vaccines at 8, 12 and 16 weeks

 

Rabies at 1 year

 

No further vaccines

 

I don't know what I will do in the future though with Panda's litter of puppies. I still haven't figured that out, as it's hard for me to do NO vaccines at all like some natural rearing breeders do (and they swear by it). I'd love to hear more input on vaccines by experienced natural rearing breeders :)

 

 

That would be the only way I wouldn't do puppy vaccines....if I got a puppy from an experienced, totally natural rearing breeder. 


  • Prey Model Raw, GimMom and exitmefrery like this

#7
Swinn

Swinn

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 22 posts
  • LocationNebraska

Hey everyone,

 

I've heard a lot about "limited vaccinations" for dogs, and I believe it helps their health a great deal. Unfortunately it's another one of those subjects where there are a thousand pieces of information being flung about and nothing really clear.

 

How do you handle limited vaccines (if any)?

 

Hi amkuska,

 

Holistic practitioners call the damage done by vaccines vaccinosis..  They know that the vaccines can actually cause disease.  As an example, they know that the rabies vaccine can cause kidney disease, autoimmune hemolytic anemia, thyroid disease and others.. 

 

The worst part about over vaccinating is that they KNOW that the core vaccines (distemper, parvo and adenovirus) last at least 5 and 7 years NOT 3...  The American Animal Hospital Association has more info on the chart starting on page four of their 2006 Canine Vaccine Guidelines.  In the recommendation column they suggest revaccination "every 3 years or longer".  However in the "Comments and Recommendations" column they clearly state that the different vaccines have efficacy of at least 5 years depending on what vaccine.  However that is the efficacy shown for the duration of the test not total efficacy --- vaccine testing is expensive and the norm is to test for only 5 or 7 years not for the life of the dog or cat.  They also know that once the immune system is active against a particular virus, revaccinating does not improve immunity.  It has NO value at all but all the complications.

 

In the old days they used to titer the mother to see when immunity of the puppies, supplied by the mother, would be over and then they would vaccinate the puppies at that time.  After vaccination they would titer the puppies to confirm the vaccination took as some pups/kitties will not be immune no matter how many times vaccinated.  Now they vaccinate several times to ensure that the immunity supplied by the mother does not end before the puppy can be vaccinated.  However there is no advantage, with all the harm, of multiple vaccinations.

 

Lepto is a very dangerous vaccination and it has limited duration of efficacy.  Plus it only protects against 4 different types (serovers) of lepto bacteria even though they is way more that can infect dogs.  They also believe that the vaccine can actually cause lepto.  Plus the dog can be a carrier without having any symptoms and can pass at least one type of the bacterium on to family members.  They actually have a lepto vaccine for humans but the vaccine is so dangerous that they only use it in "high risk" areas (none of which are in the US).

 

Kennel cough, per the Merck Vet Manual, is a self limiting disease and the vaccination may be only minimally effective as different viri and bacteria are usually involved in the disease.  Plus there is an effective and completely safe homeopathic for kennel cough given as a preventative.  All of my dogs, including the one born with kidney disease, got kennel cough.  At home support / herbs was all that was used -- raw honey, humidifier, garlic and Esberitox (and herbal supplement).  All were better in about 10 days and no worse for the wear.

 

Neurosurgeon Dr. Russell Blaylock has an article in which he states that just ONE vaccination can cause brain inflammation for up to 2 years.  That's pretty scary -- and likely the reason why vaccinations can cause aggression and behavioral issues.  My 2 and 3 year old grand babies have never been vaccinated for anything..  Their pediatrician is holistic..  :)

 

For more info on all things related to pet vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz is a Pathobiologist at the University of Wisconsin and the leading US expert on pet vaccines.  Vet Dr. Karen Becker has a 4 part video interview with Dr. Schultz that has TONS of very valuable information.  Here's video one of the series  http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xC--bGthNN8

 

Also, Dr. Schultz and others are involved in the Rabies Challenge Fund where they are getting funding from donors and using the facilities at University of Wisconsin to test the rabies vaccine for 7 year efficacy.  They are on year 5 (I believe) of the 7 year study.  Once year 5 is completed they are planning on lobbying for the 3 year current laws to be changed to 5 years and then eventually 7 years. 

 

I'm in a hurry but if anyone wants I can supply sources for all the above info at a later time :)...


  • kathylcsw, blacksheep, amkuska and 2 others like this

#8
blacksheep

blacksheep

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts

I feel like a lot of the problems are with AVMA.  CDC says one thing and AVMA says another.  


  • Swinn and exitmefrery like this

#9
Swinn

Swinn

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 22 posts
  • LocationNebraska

I feel like a lot of the problems are with AVMA.  CDC says one thing and AVMA says another.  

 

I once read, and posted the data on DFA, on the AVMA website that vets were concerned about the loss of income when switching from annual to triennial vaccination...  Ummm WHAT ABOUT THE HEALTH OF MY PET!!!  :)  I tried to find the article and struck out but found the below instead -- interesting in my opinion...

 

"Speculation feeds the gray area of vaccines. Practitioners and scientists like Glickman theorize the repeated use of vaccines breed antibodies that can attack a host's own organs, causing autoimmune disease. Schultz argues that many annual vaccines remain effective throughout a lifetime; at least one of his reports successfully challenges a distemper vaccine after seven years. But despite all the research, it wasn't until veterinarians started noting soft-tissue sarcoma developing at vaccine injection sites in cats that the issue sparked widespread debate.

 

That's when the Vaccine-Associated Feline Sarcoma Task Force began its ongoing quest to prove the vaccine-sarcoma connection. AVMA admits that the practice of annual vaccinations is based on historic precedent and not research. But that research is expensive, requiring large numbers of animals to be isolated and studied for long periods of time, says Schultz.

 

"That's why a lot more work doesn't come out," he says. "In the 1970s, there were four vaccines for dogs and we weren't using them often. Now there are 16 vaccines for dogs, and if they're not getting them annually, they're getting them more often than that.

 

"I'm the only one in the profession who challenges the immunity of vaccines. I'm really one among a total of three individuals who have challenge studies out. With just a few of us studying them and more vaccines on the market, how are we supposed to keep up?"  http://veterinarynew...il.jsp?id=35171

 

I had not heard of Dr. Glickman before so googled.  I wasn't able to find his research but rather ran across others who site his research. 

 

"A team at Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine conducted several studies (endnotes 1 & 2) to determine if vaccines can cause changes in the immune system of dogs that might lead to life-threatening immune-mediated diseases. They obviously conducted this research because concern already existed. It was sponsored by the Haywood Foundation which itself was looking for evidence that such changes in the human immune system might also be vaccine induced. It found the evidence.

The vaccinated, but not the non-vaccinated, dogs in the Purdue studies developed autoantibodies to many of their own biochemicals, including fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, cytochrome C, cardiolipin and collagen.

This means that the vaccinated dogs – ”but not the non-vaccinated dogs”– were attacking their own fibronectin, which is involved in tissue repair, cell multiplication and growth, and differentiation between tissues and organs in a living organism.....

 

Perhaps most worryingly, the Purdue studies found that the vaccinated dogs had developed autoantibodies to their own DNA. Did the alarm bells sound? Did the scientific community call a halt to the vaccination program? No. Instead, they stuck their fingers in the air, saying more research is needed to ascertain whether vaccines can cause genetic damage. Meanwhile, the study dogs were found good homes, but no long-term follow-up has been conducted."  http://www.whale.to/...driscoll11.html

 

Also wanted to mention Dr. Schultz was asked to help with the "World Small Animal Veterinary Medical Associations Vaccine Guidelines".  He is one of only three on the team.  Someone mentioned vets fearing being sued.  This was addressed in the WSAVA vaccine recommendation article and in my opinion is simply an excuse to go with the status quo.  In their report they write.

 

"Vaccines should not be given needlessly. Core vaccines should not be given any more frequently than every three years after the 12 month booster injection following the puppy/kitten series, because the duration of immunity (DOI) is many years and may be up to the lifetime of the pet.

 

In speaking to practitioner audiences about the 2007 guidelines it is clear that there is widespread confusion about their purpose.  Many practitioners are initially alarmed that the recommendations appear contrary to those given on the product data sheet, and therefore feel that if they adopt guidelines recommendations, they are leaving themselves open to litigation. The distinct difference between a data sheet and guidelines document has been clearly discussed in a recent paper (Thiry and Horzinek, 2007). 

 

A data sheet (or ‘summary of product characteristics’; SPC) is a legal document that forms part of the registration process for a vaccine. A data sheet will give details of the quality, safety and efficacy of a product and in the case of vaccines will describe the legal DOI of the product. The legal DOI is based on experimental evidence, represents a minimum value and need not reflect the true DOI of a vaccine. Most companion animal vaccines, until recently, had a 1 year DOI and carried a recommendation for annual revaccination. The sensible response of industry to recent discussions about vaccine safety has been to increasingly license products with an ‘extended’ (generally 3 year) DOI. However, for most core vaccines (see below) the true DOI is likely to be considerably longer.

 

There are instances, where the guidelines may recommend a triennial vaccination with a product that still carries a 1 year licensed DOI. The simple reason for this is that the guidelines are based on current scientific knowledge and thinking, whereas the data sheet reflects the knowledge available at the time that the vaccine received its original license (which may be more than 20 years earlier). Consequently, guidelines advice will often differ from that given in the data sheet; however, any veterinarian may use a vaccine according to guidelines (and therefore current scientific thinking) by obtaining informed (and documented) owner consent for this deviation from legal recommendations (‘off-label use’). Further confusion is often caused by company representatives who will advise, as they are legally obliged to do, that the veterinarian must adhere to the data sheet recommendation."  http://www.wsava.org...delines2010.pdf

 

The vet simply has to get documented consent from their client.  Most of us would happily do that if given the current information.  In fact, I know many that go to their vet asking for triennial vaccination and are not asked to sign a consent form but rather advised against it???

 

Sorry this is so long... :)


  • kathylcsw, GoingPostal, blacksheep and 2 others like this

#10
Pixel

Pixel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 84 posts
  • LocationTexas
Everyone got their puppy vaccines. Now I only do rabies, because its required. I don't go to groomers, dog parks or any where else that requires more. If my dogs board(rarely) they stay at work.

In the past 2 years I've seen an increase in cancer, lymphoma in particular, in both dogs and cats :(

#11
amkuska

amkuska

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 87 posts

These are really informative replies and I appreciate you guys taking the time to write out your thoughts even if its wrong. I'm really on the fence about shots, especially after Rocco got severe pain at the injection site after his second round of puppy shots. He got his finally round with the help of pain medication, and I admit I've never vaccinated him since. He's not a baby and he doesn't even blink at the injection itself, but he screams if you pick him up for days afterward. I think in his case its just better not to do it.

 

I don't know what I'll do in the future with vaccines. I'm really concerned about parvo since it's really bad in my area, and rabies for legal reasons, but I didn't even know there were 16 different vaccines!



#12
Pixel

Pixel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 84 posts
  • LocationTexas
Our clinics "core" vaccines are rabies, DHPP and Lepto. Then you got bordetella, influenza, Lyme, and rattlesnake if you want them. We rarely get people who want the Lyme and rattlesnake though, usually just hunters.

#13
GimMom

GimMom

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 684 posts
  • LocationToronto, ON

I'm probably just going to do the first year of shots when we get a new puppy, and that's it. I haven't vaccinated Gimli since last year, and I don't plan to again. Especially after reading all of Swinn's posts. I don't like pumping my dog full of crap if he doesn't need it. I'll get HW tests and other bloodwork done, as well as PE's, but that's it.



#14
Swinn

Swinn

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 22 posts
  • LocationNebraska

These are really informative replies and I appreciate you guys taking the time to write out your thoughts even if its wrong. I'm really on the fence about shots, especially after Rocco got severe pain at the injection site after his second round of puppy shots. He got his finally round with the help of pain medication, and I admit I've never vaccinated him since. He's not a baby and he doesn't even blink at the injection itself, but he screams if you pick him up for days afterward. I think in his case its just better not to do it.

 

I don't know what I'll do in the future with vaccines. I'm really concerned about parvo since it's really bad in my area, and rabies for legal reasons, but I didn't even know there were 16 different vaccines!

 

An excellent alternative to routine vaccinating is to titer for parvo instead.  If the AVMA feels that titers are adequate enough to confirm immunity in "high risk" groups of humans --- aka vets and veterinary staff members --- then tittering is good enough for me and my pups :).  The AVMA writes "Most practicing veterinarians in the United States are considered to have a frequent risk for exposure to rabies and should have their titers checked every two years, per the CDC's ACIP recommendations. However, some veterinarians might need their titers checked more or less often, so veterinarians should consult the CDC's ACIP recommendations—Table 6 provides a summarized guide—to determine their relative risk of exposure to rabies."  https://www.avma.org...es/101001p.aspx

 

A minimum immunity has not been demonstrated for rabies in dogs so titers are not offered for our pets but they do have titers for the remaining core diseases including parvo.  If the titer shows ANY protection, even if minimal, then revaccination is not necessary as it will not increase protection while there is any active immunity.

 

IF after titering you find that your pup/s is not protected, you can give a homeopathic called thuja which helps to minimize the side effects of all vaccines except rabies (lyssin is used for rabies). 

 

Vet, Dr. Karen Becker talks about titers and thuja in this article  http://healthypets.m...ccinations.aspxhttp://healthypets.m...ccinations.aspx

 

You can find lots more about thuja and lyssin by googling them.

 

Just found this -- this is Dr. Jean Dodds (a well respected holistic vet) Q & A.  She recommends slightly different than other vets I've seen (thuja and lyssin for rabies and just thuja for other vaccines).  She also discusses titers.  http://drjeandoddspe...ns#.UjO_hr4o5johttp://drjeandoddspe...ns#.UjO_hr4o5jo


  • GimMom likes this

#15
kathylcsw

kathylcsw

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 46 posts
  • LocationSouthwest Virginia

I got the basic vacs up to 1 year along with rabies. My vet does not recommend the lepto because the side effects are so bad. I plan on only getting rabies every 3 years from now on because it is required by law.



#16
Stacey

Stacey

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • LocationBC, Canada

I've stopped vaccinating my dogs now, but that said, they were on a "conventional" vaccine schedule (puppy shots, 3yr boosters) up until a couple of years ago, so this is still new to me/us.

 

I'd like for my next puppy to be non-vaccinated, but finding a NR breeder that produces the breeds and quality I'm looking for doesn't seem very likely. Chances are, pup will have had one or two sets of vax and I intend to stop it at that… however, I want to do classes with my pup, so if vaccines (and the rabies vax) are required for that.. I'll have to figure something out.

 

I'm hoping titers will be sufficient.



#17
GoingPostal

GoingPostal

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 200 posts

I do distemper combo and rabies every three years, mostly just in case anything ever happens I'd like to be covered.  I'd prefer to do less and Jersey will be 9 next year and due, not sure yet what I am going to do.  My cat has had one rabies shot in the last decade or so but she was heavily yearly vaccinated for 3-4 years before that.  My ferrets get none. 



#18
lovemypits

lovemypits

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 143 posts

Babs my 13 year old,  who I have had since she was 3,  has gotten all her scheduled vaccinations per vet recommendation (before I knew better)  I stopped all of them except rabies about 2 years ago.

Macy my other 13 year old, I rescued her at 11 so she got her first round of shots and just rabies now.

Capone my 2 year old who I just rescued got his DHPP & rabies only, and will only be getting rabies from now on.

 

I do rabies only because it is required by law.

 

My feelings on this is, as humans we only get vaccinated as children, and only to a certain age, we do not get boosters our whole lives so why give them to our animals.



#19
MiloTheStaffy

MiloTheStaffy

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 15 posts

It's crazy how vets tell you that your dog "needs" all these vaccines, this was a very educational forum! Thanks! Looks like I will be sticking to the early puppy shots and rabies only!


  • Prey Model Raw likes this

#20
Jordann

Jordann

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 1,288 posts
  • LocationWashington State
I do my own shots from the feed store. The canine spectra 7 and don't remember what the cat one is, but I do get the shot for leukemia, since she goes outside to play and go potty. She tries to interact with other cats but they don't always seem too keen to play back. lol

We do our own rabies as well. I have heard because a vet isn't documenting my shots they don't count, but I keep track anyways ... Especially since Calvin likes to chase possums and raccoons at night or early morning. Need to look into the limited/no vaccines. Very informative post. Got me thinking! :)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

We use this company for SEO