12 replies to this topic

[Poodlebeguiled]

Hi everyone! I'm so glad I found this forum. So many here seem to have been feeding raw successfully for a long time and I appreciate your expertise.

 

I started feeding raw about a month ago to my three little dogs. I have an old fella named Jose`. He's a Chihuahua mix and loves to eat. He's obsessed. The first time I gave him a thigh, I think he must have swallowed the bone whole because since then he hasn't been able to chew up any bones. He sort of gnaws on them but he is missing a lot of teeth so I let him fiddle with it and then eventually, toss it. So, mostly I've been feeding him Nature's Variety raw and sometimes my own mixture but add a couple pinches of ground up egg shell. Do I need to get some bone meal? And how in the world does one know how much to give?

 

I have also two toy Poodles, Maurice a little over 4 lbs and Matisse, about 7 lbs. (He's the one in my avatar) They seem to be doing fine. I did not start correctly and fast them or go for a whole week with just chicken. But anyhow, with some adjusting, their poo seems to be pretty good most of the time. 

 

Here's some of what I've been feeding. Perhaps you can weigh in and offer some wisdom. 

 

Every other day, I give the Poodles a chicken thigh or wing. (with the thigh, I must cut off some meat because it's too much) They're very

small dogs. They go in their crates on a towel and I can hear them crushing the bone. They totally enjoy this and are barracudas. I tried a pork country style spare rib but it seems too sharp and hard so no more of those for bones. 

 

My home made ground mixes include ground beef, turkey, pork, chopped up lamb or gizzards and hearts. (I read that gizzards don't count as an organ because they're not rich enough in those nutrients that other organs have) I put the gizzard and heart mixture (with veggies) in ice cube trays and will give at some meals one of those cubes for each dog and the equivalent of another meat mixture because perhaps the gizzards and hearts are very rich. (?)

 

In my ground meat mixes here's an example of what I've included: (steamed gently till tender and run through my Vita Mix) Carrots, celery, green beans or broccoli, spinach or kale, some slices of yams, pumpkin, blue berries, banana, small amount of organ meat. (I try to make it 10% but not sure if I'm doing the math right) I know that liver should not be more than 50% of the 10% and now have finally located some tongue and kidneys. Eggs, shells included that I put through my Vita Mix. (about 4 or 5 to a lb+ of meat) When I pour in the veggies, I'd say that soupy mixture of veggies takes up about a good half of the meat itself, volume wise. I'm paranoid about them missing out on some minerals and vitamins. The raw eggs and veggies mixed in with the meat makes a very loose mixture. But it works I guess. Maybe I should cook the eggs?

 

I open a can of sardines once or twice a week or salmon. Other meals, I squirt a fish oil capsule in their food...not every meal. I'm worried about not getting enough iodine in their food. 

 

Sometimes I don't make up a pre-made mixture but instead feed chunks. For instance, I cut up some lamb I got on sale. Very small chuncks. Then I make up some vegetable mixture as described above and put into ice cube trays. Some meals might be some lamb and a cube of veggie mixture. If there's no egg or bone for calcium, I'll take a pinch of powdered egg shells material that I've ground up in my Vita Mix after boiling the shells. (That's from eggs I use for myself and I save the shells, boil and grind up) Sometimes a spoonful of Greek yogurt goes on top.

 

So, any words of advice? I've probably forgotten and left something out. I did buy a bigger freezer which I need and am waiting for it's arrival to go back and get some yummy intestines and stomach from one of those big international stores. Wouldn't those things be a good addition? They even had uterus from a cow, I think it was. And goat meat, kangaroo, alligator, frog legs, chicken and duck feet, brains, you name it. Eeek! Good thing I'm not overly squeamish. lol. Thanks in advance. 

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[zeusthedapple]

I'm sure everyone here will have plenty of great advice to give. The one thing that stands out when I'm thinking of advice to give to you is - larger cuts of meat, less grind (for the other two if they're able).

 

If your other two guys have enough teeth to chew, then I would suggest trying to do more whole, bigger cuts of meat, rather than grinds. That way they can get more mental stimulation from the meal, strengthen jaw muscles, and I believe prep the stomach to digest better (so less bloating?).

 

For the Chi on Nature's Variety, I don't feed that, but I would figure they have ground bone in their nuggets, right? As long as his poops are normal, I wouldn't worry about the bone, imo, especially with the high probability that NV has ground bone in the mix already.

 

Yes, gizzards are a muscle. Hearts are richer, I don't believe gizzards are too terribly rich, more so than another cut of muscle. Try not to overwhelm yourself too much with numbers and every last thing, it's a lot easier to keep it simple. I don't feed the BARF method, I do PMR, so I don't mess with the fruits/veg. I think the closest to BARF I go is sprinkling kelp into the diet a couple times weekly. Yep, liver is 5% of the 10% for organ. As long as the poop isn't dark and mucous-y,  I wouldn't worry. If they look healthy, I wouldn't worry. I wouldn't bother cooking the egg.

 

If you have access to green tripe, I would throw that into the diet. (so long as they eat it. Thankfully, my little boy will eat anything under the sun).

 

For the fish, I give him about a tsp of salmon every day. (unrefined coco oil in the morning).

 

My boy LOVES kangaroo, I'm sure your lot will too! It smells sweet, it's lovely. Frog legs would be good for bone-in. My boy is 6lb so for his bone-in he gets cornish (all of it except wings-he's a gulper) chicken feet, duck feet, chicken neck, duck neck. Those would be good for the little ones. Zeus has even handled duck head quite well, so that's something else to consider for bone-in pieces if you like.

 

And your pups are adorable!

[Poodlebeguiled]

Thank you so much Zeusthedapple for your advice. I have tried and tried to get raw, green tripe and at the butcher's yesterday, I was informed that it's illegal in this country. Huh??? I wonder because since then...just today, I was looking online and found a place to order it. So, yeah! Do you think the intestines and stomach I saw in those Asian markets would be good? Isn't that what tripe is essentially? I will take your advice and get some more regular cuts of meat and not so much ground. The Poodles aren't gulpers though. In fact, they are very slow and dainty when they eat and self regulate...stop if they're full. They don't like the blueberries I put in some of their mixtures and will pick them out of the bowl and set them next to the bowl on the throw rug, then resume nibbling. They have all their teeth and they're in great shape. These guys aren't even 3 years old yet. And I've been brushing their teeth almost every night. 

 

That kangaroo sounds awesome. I think I'll get some of that soon and some of those other unusual things I saw...like the frog legs and such.

 

So when you say you don't mess with veggies and fruits, is the tripe you feed enough to mimic what they'd be getting when they eat an animal? I know that just plain meat and bones would leave out many essential minerals, vitamins, amino acids etc. That's why I give the veggies but they do need to be broken down first since dogs don't eat fresh vegetables typically and don't break down the cell walls of plants too well...although there is some resent research that indicates that they do indeed digest grains quite well, due to a convergent evolution with humans. Their genes show this. (long story, but very interesting) Although their jaws, teeth, digestion is very carnivore, I believe behaviorally, they're omnivores. And most important is that they're more scavengers than they are hunters. Wild dogs are very much so scavengers. So, they've adapted apparently, to eating other things besides animals. But of course, their main diet needs plenty of meat and that's what's missing in so many commercial foods. Fixing veggies is one more dang thing to do so what do you do to get all those nutrients they need that are in veggies? Maybe I'll learn something and not have to mess with them either. But it does seem to counter balance their poo if it gets too hard from the bone. lol. What a discussion....like a bunch of young mothers with babies discussing their findings in the diaper. 

 

Yes, Nature's Variety pre-made raw is made from various sources of meat...they have different formulas and they all include ground bone. This brand is quite well thought of by Dog Food Adviser....not that they're the end all, of course.  

[naturalfeddogs]

I agree with less ground and more whole cuts. The more variety the better in the way of meat/bones/organs. Those in themselves, fed in variety supply all the nutrients a dog needs. Fruits and veggies aren't needed. Dogs have no biological need for those. Treats are given sometimes, but shouldn't be relied on as nutritional value.

[zeusthedapple]

I completely agree with naturalfeddogs. If I happen to have some blueberries, I will freeze them and give him some as a treat, but I don't fuss with fruits/veg with his diet.

 

As far as supplements go... I have dried kelp I add a couple times weekly, he also gets coconut oil every morning. On his next order, I plan on buying some lamb bone broth, colostrum, and raw kefir, so we shall see how that goes!

 

Tripe is great, I would go with it! Really healthy stuff, make sure it isn't bleached. Intestines, isn't that a no-no? I thought that's where parasites can be, or am I mistaken? I would get a second opinion.

[naturalfeddogs]

Intestines are a no no. That's where parasites will be if there are any. 

 

Anything like tripe that you find in the grocery store that is white, has been bleached and cleaned. It has no nutritional value at all, so no reason to waste your money on that. The raw "green" tripe we feed our dogs is illeagle to sell in stores intended for humans. 

[Poodlebeguiled]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I do appreciate it. I have done quite a bit of reading and my understanding is (correct me if I've missed something) that what dogs eat in the wild (wild dogs for instance) includes things like hair (see that in coyote poo) and stomachs, linings of intestines, feet, brains etc. So it's more than just meat and bone. My understanding was that meat and bone isn't going to include all the nutrients that they need. So something must mimic the stomach contents. (which I thought they didn't eat but have found some info that they do) If we're not feeding the stomach or whatnot, hence the broken down (steamed and pulverized) veggies. So are you saying that the meat and bones and occasional tripe is sufficient? I do know about the white, bleached tripe being absent of nutrients. So now I finally found a place online where I can get green tripe. 

 

I'm just trying to get a deeper understanding of all this because I'm very paranoid about my dogs missing out on some important mineral, vitamin, enzyme, amino acid etc etc. Very paranoid. PLUS...I still am guessing at amounts of things. It's very hard to be sure I'm doing things right. So far, basically, all they've had are chicken bones but a variety of meats. I tried pork spareribs and they surprisingly were very, very sharp and hard so didn't go back to those, though they do get Pork tenderloin which I scored at Costco for $10 off. So a $14 dollar tenderloin cost me $4.00! I got a few of those. And some leg of lamb 50% off. So those are meats that aren't ground. Anyhow, now I've found this Asian market or rather, two of them and they do have other uncommon meats and bones so I'll get those things. 

 

Now how do I know for sure they're getting everything in adequate amounts and in balance? This is still freaking me out. Grrrr. Today, they got Nature's miracle lamb formula. As far as amount of food, that's not a problem. I can tell if they're getting too fat or thin. But I mean the ratios etc. I understand that the organ meat is 10% (5% of liver though) and bone should be about 10% and muscle meat about 80%. But it's so hard for me to know what I'm looking at. I give them a few (2-3) tiny pieces of liver or tongue, kidney every meal except the meals where they get a bone. Again, my dogs are 10, 7, & 4 lbs. (about)

 

Thanks again for your support. I'm just very worried I'll do something wrong. I mentioned that I'm starting a raw food diet to my vet and he said they can be fine but they need fruits and vegetables to get all the nutrients...that if I just feed meat, I'll kill my dogs. I told him I'm NOT just feeding meat. They're getting bones and veggies too. He didn't have time to discuss it much at that appointment so it was a very short lived conversation. And I do know what is said about vets not knowing about nutrition. But they do know how the body works and what is needed to work it, right? I have just got to get this math figured out and what all to give so they don't miss out on anything important. And then I'll be happy. I do believe that fresh food has got to be better than kibble when you don't even know for sure what they've done. The premium foods I felt better about but still....recalls and they are in business to make money, so I fear they take major short cuts no matter who they are.

[zeusthedapple]

What's important to ensure your dogs are keeping completely balanced in necessary nutrients and minerals is to refer to the 80-10-10 (roughly). Feeding meats (predominately red meat), bone, and organ is what will offer your dogs all the nutrients they require. (Again, this is if you refer to the PMR model).

 

Also, tongue is considered muscle, not organ.

 

You don't have to worry about precise measurements, but if it helps, you can do. Especially knowing that some dogs may need more/less of one thing than another. I measure mine out since I would have the tendency to be more anxious in my worries. http://perfectlyrawsome.com is a good site for info and that.

 

You can also take them to the vet and have like a full panel done on them to make sure they're healthy, but it's pricey.

 

Just try not to over think it all, keep it simple. Don't overwhelm yourself.

 

If you feel better feeding a BARF method, then do that. If you prefer PMR, then do that. You'll have to find out what works best for you and your pups and go with that. It's all about just wanting to give your dog the best, whatever that might mean for you. It'll be okay.

[Poodlebeguiled]

Thank you so much Zeusthedapple. I will continue to research but sometimes I don't know what the credentials are of those who put articles and such online. There are some compelling arguments against as well. So, I am a little torn. I sure thank you and I'll be checking out that link. Right now, I must go divide up a semi frozen pkg of chicken necks and put in smaller portions. My goodness...much of one pkg is made up of little chunks, not the whole neck. This looks like a choking or blockage hazard. Yikes! 

[zeusthedapple]

This is a great forum with plenty of fantastic people who have fed for years and can tell you all the benefits and how to achieve them successfully. Perfectly Rawsome is a site I trust, I talk to the people regularly, they also feed their pets raw and maintain them beautifully. (their instagram: perfectlyrawsome).

 

Good luck and never hesitate to ask for help!

[naturalfeddogs]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I do appreciate it. I have done quite a bit of reading and my understanding is (correct me if I've missed something) that what dogs eat in the wild (wild dogs for instance) includes things like hair (see that in coyote poo) and stomachs, linings of intestines, feet, brains etc. So it's more than just meat and bone. My understanding was that meat and bone isn't going to include all the nutrients that they need. So something must mimic the stomach contents. (which I thought they didn't eat but have found some info that they do) If we're not feeding the stomach or whatnot, hence the broken down (steamed and pulverized) veggies. So are you saying that the meat and bones and occasional tripe is sufficient? I do know about the white, bleached tripe being absent of nutrients. So now I finally found a place online where I can get green tripe. 

 

I'm just trying to get a deeper understanding of all this because I'm very paranoid about my dogs missing out on some important mineral, vitamin, enzyme, amino acid etc etc. Very paranoid. PLUS...I still am guessing at amounts of things. It's very hard to be sure I'm doing things right. So far, basically, all they've had are chicken bones but a variety of meats. I tried pork spareribs and they surprisingly were very, very sharp and hard so didn't go back to those, though they do get Pork tenderloin which I scored at Costco for $10 off. So a $14 dollar tenderloin cost me $4.00! I got a few of those. And some leg of lamb 50% off. So those are meats that aren't ground. Anyhow, now I've found this Asian market or rather, two of them and they do have other uncommon meats and bones so I'll get those things. 

 

Now how do I know for sure they're getting everything in adequate amounts and in balance? This is still freaking me out. Grrrr. Today, they got Nature's miracle lamb formula. As far as amount of food, that's not a problem. I can tell if they're getting too fat or thin. But I mean the ratios etc. I understand that the organ meat is 10% (5% of liver though) and bone should be about 10% and muscle meat about 80%. But it's so hard for me to know what I'm looking at. I give them a few (2-3) tiny pieces of liver or tongue, kidney every meal except the meals where they get a bone. Again, my dogs are 10, 7, & 4 lbs. (about)

 

Thanks again for your support. I'm just very worried I'll do something wrong. I mentioned that I'm starting a raw food diet to my vet and he said they can be fine but they need fruits and vegetables to get all the nutrients...that if I just feed meat, I'll kill my dogs. I told him I'm NOT just feeding meat. They're getting bones and veggies too. He didn't have time to discuss it much at that appointment so it was a very short lived conversation. And I do know what is said about vets not knowing about nutrition. But they do know how the body works and what is needed to work it, right? I have just got to get this math figured out and what all to give so they don't miss out on anything important. And then I'll be happy. I do believe that fresh food has got to be better than kibble when you don't even know for sure what they've done. The premium foods I felt better about but still....recalls and they are in business to make money, so I fear they take major short cuts no matter who they are.

Your dogs won't be missing anything, as long as you feed a variety. Most of our pet dogs probably actually get more variety than in the wild. There, they just get what they can get. Sometimes days without eating at all.

 

In the wild, they don't intentionally eat hair, but I'm sure do in the process of tearing into their kill. The intestines they generally leave, and will sometimes shake out the stomach contents and eat some of them,(tripe) at times but not the whole stomach itself. If you see a leftover kill, that is usually what's left. Intestines and stomach. See what a cat leaves after killing a rabbit or mouse. The same thing. 

[TRDmom]

Meat, bone and organs are the bulk of their diet. In the wild, ingesting some hair while removing the pelt is inevitable. Same with eating the stomach lining (tripe)--getting some of the contents is inevitable. My own dog is not interested in eating hair unless he has a "toy" hide (one that has been skinned and left to dry in the sun); then he eats it during the course of his play (which could take a number of days). Canines are also opportunistic animals--they may decide to eat something just because its there or because they don't have any other option (something to consider when talking about the diet of wild animals).

 

You will hear a wide range of how people feel raw feeding should be done. Different doesn't mean wrong. I believe in being respectful of others and their beliefs and experiences. I also try to do as much research (and trial/error) as I can in order to make my own decisions.

 

Good luck!

[Spy Car]

Chester eats a fair amount of hair, because one of our local sources has raw pig ears (fur on) at a nice price. I bought 3 cases yesterday.

I like that even for a dog that's got really strong neck and jaw muscles (a benefit of the diet) that he needs to really chomp to get through the cartilage in the ears. Doubt there is much nutrition in the hair itself.

My concern with fruits and vegetables isn't in feeding micro amounts, it is that once carbohydrates become a fuel source it disrupts the natural (and far more efficient) fat burning physiology that gives raw fed dogs many of their health advantages.

Fat burning has been proved in scientific studies (not woo) as the best and most sustained energy source in dogs. Carbohydrates, in contrast, provide a short-term boost to blood glycogen, followed by a crash. Carbohydrates stress the pancreas in both its blood sugar moderating function (with insulin spikes that are unnatural to canines) and by requiring the release of unnatural levels of amylase (the enzyme needed to digest starches).

When conditioned to burn fat there are actually changes within the cells of dogs (in their mitochondria activation) that make fat burning highly efficient, sustained, and cool-burning. In one, of many, studies supporting fat burning, researchers took dogs fed a kibble (high carb diet) that were not in peak physical condition (couch potato type dogs) and did tests on their aerobic capacity (based on VO2 Max scores). The dogs , as expected, had relatively low scores. Then they switched the dogs to high-protein high-fat diets. After a time they retested and found the VO2 Max scores leap up to levels ordinarily seen in well-conditioned dogs, based on the dietary change alone. No change in routine otherwise.

If one combines the superiority of fat burning with vigorous exercise, look out! You'll get a very lean, strong dog who can work at peak performance levels for hours.

I see what it has done for my Vizsla, a sporting breed with high-energy in any case. But great nutrition combined with genetic potential results in a super athlete.

Adding carbs to the ration would only undermine performance.

Bill