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Vitamin E


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36 replies to this topic

#1
zeusthedapple

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This is why I should not have enough free time to google things about dogs' diets. I've been slammed with all this talk about how it's hard to get enough vitamin E through a raw diet. Is this true or nah? If so, what proteins/other should I give him to insure he's tip top?


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#2
naturalfeddogs

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Liver and kidney have lots of vit. E. Buffalo is a red meat that has it also. Its not hard to get enough of, it just goes back to variety, and being sure to give liver and/or kidney regular.


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#3
zeusthedapple

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Thanks!



#4
naturalfeddogs

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:thumbsu:


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#5
Spy Car

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I just looked up the vitamin e levels in beef liver and beef kidney. They are quite low.

 

Assuming a dog eats 10% organs (and for sake of example lets say 10% beef liver one day, 10% kidney the next).

 

If we have a dog that eats about 2.2 lbs per day, then 10% of a meal is about 100 grams (about 3.5 oz)

 

A 100 g (3.5 oz) piece of beef liver has about 0.38-0.5 mg of vitamin e. To get the IU (International Units) for vitamin e one multiplies the mg by 1.1. So a 100 mg piece of liver has 0.55 IUs on the high side. I'm seeing recommendation for active medium sized canine athletes to get 400 iUs a day of vitamin e, not 0.55 IUs.

 

Beef Kidney is even lower in vitamin e than beef kidney, with a 113 g piece listed at 0.2 mg, or 0.22 IUs.

 

So the average vitamin e dose from organs (alone) over 2 days is just 0.385 IUs. If 400 IUs is the target, then organs alone aren't going to get one close to that goal.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Bill



#6
naturalfeddogs

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Its also in beef, lamb, duck, egg yolks, brains...... I'm sure there are more. Variety. Feed variety and you will get all that is needed. That's how raw is fed correctly.



#7
Spy Car

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I'm sure you're aware I know how to feed raw correctly.

But if one had a sample meal of 1 lb (16 oz) of chicken thigh (0.2 mg of Vit. E per pound), 1 lb lamb or beef (similar levels of Vit. E at aprox 0.8 mg per pound, and 3.5 oz "organ" (0.2 mg), plus add an egg (0.5 mg for an extra large), the total would be 1.7 mg, or 1.8 IUs.

Now the recommendation for 400 IUs may be high (but is common for sport dogs) is way higher than the 1.8 IUs in a sample meal. Even with variety, I don't know how you get near those kind of numbers.

Bill

#8
TRDmom

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Interesting topic. I have been looking up dog food labels to see how much vitamin E they include per serving, but so far no luck. I wonder why they don't list the nutrition facts of their nutritionally complete foods?

 

I came across this article about vitamins and minerals in raw diets. It is disappointing that they don't include references and "hard numbers," though (it would have made a stronger argument). http://www.dogsnatur...s-and-minerals/


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#9
Spy Car

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Interesting topic. I have been looking up dog food labels to see how much vitamin E they include per serving, but so far no luck. I wonder why they don't list the nutrition facts of their nutritionally complete foods?

 

I came across this article about vitamins and minerals in raw diets. It is disappointing that they don't include references and "hard numbers," though (it would have made a stronger argument). http://www.dogsnatur...s-and-minerals/

 

Orijen lists the Vitamin E amounts in their food. The Regional Red kibble has 400 IUs per Kilogram.

 

When I used their feeding guide to extrapolate a guesstimate for what a high-energy Vizsla (about 58 lbs) would consume in a day (about 2.5 cups) I got about 120 IUs of Vitamin E per day. The sample PMR meal I calculated above was 1.8 IUs. 

 

Those "into supplements" for medium-large active canine atheletes seem to be doing 400 IUs (with some doing 200), and up to 800 IUs for big dogs. Not sure this is "necessary," but these are the levels being supplimented over what's in feed.

 

Bill


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#10
Spy Car

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The leading scientific authority on animal nutrition is the National Research Council. The NRC has determined dogs have no nutritional requirement for carbohydrates in their diet. So they are not captives of the pet-food industry.

 

What the NRC said in their findings in the "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs(1985)" is that dogs require 1.1 IU per kilogram of body weight daily for pregnancy and 1.2 IU per kilogram of body weight for growth.

 

So a 22 kilo dog (about 60 lb) should have about 30 IUs of Vitamin during  pregnancy and 32.5 IUs for growth on a daily basis. Not seeing a "non-growth" number.

 

The report also stresses the importance of selenium in relation to Vitamin E absorption. And also how critical it is to add Vitamin E if feeding polyunsaturated oils. Polyunsaturated oils (especially rancid ones) produce free-radicals that require (and consume) Vitamin E to quash. Many (most) sources of polyunsaturated fats come from plant sources, but do include Omega 3 oils from fish (which are well-known to require additional Vitamin E).

 

I'm learning here too, and want to share what I'm finding. 

 

Bill


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#11
TRDmom

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The leading scientific authority on animal nutrition is the National Research Council. The NRC has determined dogs have no nutritional requirement for carbohydrates in their diet. So they are not captives of the pet-food industry.

 

What the NRC said in their findings in the "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs(1985)" is that dogs require 1.1 IU per kilogram of body weight daily for pregnancy and 1.2 IU per kilogram of body weight for growth.

 

So a 22 kilo dog (about 60 lb) should have about 30 IUs of Vitamin during  pregnancy and 32.5 IUs for growth on a daily basis. Not seeing a "non-growth" number.

 

The report also stresses the importance of selenium in relation to Vitamin E absorption. And also how critical it is to add Vitamin E if feeding polyunsaturated oils. Polyunsaturated oils (especially rancid ones) produce free-radicals that require (and consume) Vitamin E to quash. Many (most) sources of polyunsaturated fats come from plant sources, but do include Omega 3 oils from fish (which are well-known to require additional Vitamin E).

 

I'm learning here too, and want to share what I'm finding. 

 

Bill

 

Great! Thanks for sharing. I'm seriously looking to supplementing vitamin E. I have seen that the "necessary" amount isn't extraordinarily high, but believe some supplementation is necessary particularly since we use salmon oil. Still researching this, but vitamin E has about 8 forms and the usual supplements contain only 1 form (alpha-tocopherol). E with mixed tocopherols and/or gamma complex appear a better choice.


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#12
Spy Car

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Great! Thanks for sharing. I'm seriously looking to supplementing vitamin E. I have seen that the "necessary" amount isn't extraordinarily high, but believe some supplementation is necessary particularly since we use salmon oil. Still researching this, but vitamin E has about 8 forms and the usual supplements contain only 1 form (alpha-tocopherol). E with mixed tocopherols and/or gamma complex appear a better choice.

 

I'm also looking into supplementation. I almost purchased some Vitamin E today, but saw it was only alpha-tocopherol.

 

This in not an area of personal expertise, so I appreciate sharing information as we gather it.

 

Bill



#13
Spy Car

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Thinking out loud here (and playing Devil's Advocate with myself) but in reading on human supplementation with Vitamin E it seems there is no clinical evidence for improved health, and a number of areas where supplementation lead to worse results. Canines are not humans, but good quality studies on dogs in this area seem difficult to find. It also seems like getting Vitamin E (like so many other nutrients) is best via real food. I'm sure most of us resonate with the idea that nutrients should come (whenever possible) from real food.

 

Additionally, while commercial foods are supplemented with Vitamin E, it seems that in products like kibble that the vitamin breaks down rather quickly. So who knows how much is really present at feedings, or how bio-available it is in its form?

 

At the moment I don't see a really clear answer as of yet.

 

Thoughts?

 

Bill



#14
TRDmom

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One thought I had was: if vitamin E is important and unattainable through a raw diet, then how are wild canids not deficient?

 

I'm also curious about how necessary a lot of vitamins and minerals are to dogs. As you pointed out, there isn't a lot of research on available. Really though, how were all of the animals surviving before Purina and the other "boys in the band" came along?

 

I still haven't ruled out supplementation though. I was looking at 200 IU, maybe once a week or so.


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#15
Spy Car

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One thought I had was: if vitamin E is important and unattainable through a raw diet, then how are wild canids not deficient?

 

I'm also curious about how necessary a lot of vitamins and minerals are to dogs. As you pointed out, there isn't a lot of research on available. Really though, how were all of the animals surviving before Purina the other "boys in the band" came along?

 

I still haven't ruled out supplementation though. I was looking at 200 IU, maybe once a week or so.

 

I'm having many of the same thoughts you are.

 

I see how vital my dog looks on the PRM diet, and see the stamina it promotes. i'm sold. Since I've taken on the job of a DIY diet, I'm especially sensitive to avoiding deficiencies. I understand that in the internet era all sorts of claims about circles benefits for all sorts of health items. I'm a skeptic. That the National Research Council has significantly higher numbers for Vitamin E than my sample PMR meal does make me take notice.

 

Not sure what I'm going to do yet. 

 

Bill



#16
naturalfeddogs

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I think you both have answered your own questions, in a way. Bill, you are absolutely correct that both people and dogs, should get their nutrients from foods, rather than supplements. That is so right. and TRDmom, before kibble, dogs ate people's leftovers from both their meals and scraps from their livestock and wild game they butchered for themselves. Back then, no supplements and they thrived. Wolves today even in the wild, have thrived for thousands of years on their own, eating their natural diet with no one supplementing anything. I'm pretty sure out in Yellowstone the rangers aren't dropping loads of vitamin E to the wolves there. Which, to me, says they are getting what they need naturally in their diet or they wouldn't be thriving now, much less the last however many thousands of years they have been in existance. 

 

So, I think you both are pretty much coming to the same conclusion, as to why you aren't finding much info on it. Because, as raw feeders feeding in variety, you are supplying your dogs with all they need. Your dogs outwardly appearance, their energy and overall health says it all. Nature has Vitamin E covered. This makes for a really good discussion, but can be easily "overthought". 



#17
TRDmom

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Here's a link I've looked at: https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/

 

The research is based on human usage though. Overall, I haven't found a strong case for vitamin E as a necessity, except perhaps for pregnancy/fetal development. Under the heading "Health Risks from Excessive Vitamin E" it says:

 

However, high doses of alpha-tocopherol supplements can cause hemorrhage and interrupt blood coagulation in animals, and in vitro data suggest that high doses inhibit platelet aggregation.

 

Levels studied in two trials were 40mg/day and 400 IU /every other day.



#18
naturalfeddogs

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I won't supplement. Mine will get what comes in their food naturally. Over supplementing anything, people, dogs or otherwise isn't ever good. More isn't always better. I've figured out over the years, mother nature isn't stupid. She knows exactly what shes doing to keep a species thriving. 



#19
Spy Car

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I think you both have answered your own questions, in a way. Bill, you are absolutely correct that both people and dogs, should get their nutrients from foods, rather than supplements. That is so right. and TRDmom, before kibble, dogs ate people's leftovers from both their meals and scraps from their livestock and wild game they butchered for themselves. Back then, no supplements and they thrived. Wolves today even in the wild, have thrived for thousands of years on their own, eating their natural diet with no one supplementing anything. I'm pretty sure out in Yellowstone the rangers aren't dropping loads of vitamin E to the wolves there. Which, to me, says they are getting what they need naturally in their diet or they wouldn't be thriving now, much less the last however many thousands of years they have been in existance. 
 
So, I think you both are pretty much coming to the same conclusion, as to why you aren't finding much info on it. Because, as raw feeders feeding in variety, you are supplying your dogs with all they need. Your dogs outwardly appearance, their energy and overall health says it all. Nature has Vitamin E covered. This makes for a really good discussion, but can be easily "overthought".


You make reasonable points. However, we know that some nutrients in industrially produced foods, including commercially fed animals, don't have the same natural balances that "prey" might have in the wild. Most PMR feeders (especially those who can't exclusively feed grass-fed beef and lamb) supplement with fish oil, or (like me) feed whole oily fish like mackerel, sardines, and anchovies. I feed whole fish because I prefer nutrients from whole foods AND because I can get oily fish here cost effectively. I understand from your posts that oily fish is cost prohibitive where you are. If that was my reality (like you) I'd use fish oil.

So supplementing critical ingredients that may be lacking in conventionally raised meat is not unusual. I neither want to "over think"possible nutritional deficiencies, but nor do I want to make false assumptions. The sample numbers I saw put the Vitamin E numbers in a far lower range than I expected.

So my mind is still open on the question of whether what I've been feeding offers optimal levels (or not). And if I could make an easy improvement. On the issue of PRM generally, I could not be more enthusiastic about the results I'm seeing. No question about that.

But if there is a place for Omega 3 supplimention in a PMR diet (which I think is common place practice) there may be room for Vitamin E supplementation as well. It is an open question in my book.

Bill
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#20
Spy Car

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Here's a link I've looked at: https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/
 
The research is based on human usage though. Overall, I haven't found a strong case for vitamin E as a necessity, except perhaps for pregnancy/fetal development. Under the heading "Health Risks from Excessive Vitamin E" it says:

 

However, high doses of alpha-tocopherol supplements can cause hemorrhage and interrupt blood coagulation in animals, and in vitro data suggest that high doses inhibit platelet aggregation.

 
Levels studied in two trials were 40mg/day and 400 IU /every other day.

You're right. The clinical evidence for benefits from human supplimentation of Vitamin E is weak, and it some cases it appears counterproductive.

At this point I've got more questions than answers.

Bill




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