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Vitamin E


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36 replies to this topic

#21
TRDmom

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You're right. The clinical evidence for benefits from human supplimentation of Vitamin E is weak, and it some cases it appears counterproductive.

At this point I've got more questions than answers.

Bill

 

Me too (more questions than answers on this). Like you said above, since there is need for omega 3 supplementation, there may be a need for Vit. E too. I'm not running to the supplement bandwagon, but I am not pushing it away without giving it some serious thought.



#22
zeusthedapple

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I've quite enjoyed reading through this discussion. It definitely gives me plenty to think about, but I agree that we can easily over-think this. Perhaps the occasional supplement couldn't cause too much harm.

 

Also, I'm not sure if I should have to worry too much about Vit E supplementing. All the information you've gathered is talking about larger dogs, whereas my pooch is only 6lbs.


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#23
Spy Car

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What I'm thinking about (not decided) is maybe getting whole hulled sunflower seeds and then grinding them fresh, rather than pills.

Thoughts?

Bill
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#24
TRDmom

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I was looking at wheat germ oil. 1 tablespoon is supposed to have 20.3 mg. https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/

 

BUT that takes us back to the question of what can dogs efficiently metabolize. I'm on the fence about supplementation. If I do, it would probably be a few times per month and a lower dose (under 200 mg).



#25
TRDmom

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What I'm thinking about (not decided) is maybe getting whole hulled sunflower seeds and then grinding them fresh, rather than pills.

Thoughts?

Bill

 

You may not need to grind them. My dog loves eating raw nuts (e.g. pistachio, hazelnut). We usually have nuts and when one gets dropped, it goes to him.



#26
TRDmom

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The following link is to a pamphlet by the National Research Council on dog nutrition. It focuses more on ranges of protein, vitamins and minerals than the source of those nutrients (though they do a couple jabs against raw feeding, but weakly IMO). I hope the numbers are helpful.

 

http://dels.nas.edu/...n_final_fix.pdf



#27
Spy Car

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I was looking at wheat germ oil. 1 tablespoon is supposed to have 20.3 mg. https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/

 

BUT that takes us back to the question of what can dogs efficiently metabolize. I'm on the fence about supplementation. If I do, it would probably be a few times per month and a lower dose (under 200 mg).

 

I also looked at Wheat Germ Oil, but the bottled version evidently goes rancid really quickly.

 

Bill



#28
Spy Car

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The following link is to a pamphlet by the National Research Council on dog nutrition. It focuses more on ranges of protein, vitamins and minerals than the source of those nutrients (though they do a couple jabs against raw feeding, but weakly IMO). I hope the numbers are helpful.

 

http://dels.nas.edu/...n_final_fix.pdf

 

The pamphlet is not nearly as informative (or balanced) as the full report published as The Nutritional Needs of Dogs and Cats. The full version, despite covering different types of carbohydrates, does state that dogs have no essential needs for carbohydrates in their diets. This "cutdown" omits that conclusion, and otherwise skews the presentation towards carbohydrates being fine (up to even 50% of a diet). Yikes!

 

Bill



#29
Spy Car

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I've quite enjoyed reading through this discussion. It definitely gives me plenty to think about, but I agree that we can easily over-think this. Perhaps the occasional supplement couldn't cause too much harm.
 
Also, I'm not sure if I should have to worry too much about Vit E supplementing. All the information you've gathered is talking about larger dogs, whereas my pooch is only 6lbs.


Thanks for asking the question and getting the ball rolling on the discussion.

Bill

#30
TRDmom

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The pamphlet is not nearly as informative (or balanced) as the full report published as The Nutritional Needs of Dogs and Cats. The full version, despite covering different types of carbohydrates, does state that dogs have no essential needs for carbohydrates in their diets. This "cutdown" omits that conclusion, and otherwise skews the presentation towards carbohydrates being fine (up to even 50% of a diet). Yikes!

 

Bill

 

Can you point me in the direction of the full report? My search results turn up either the condensed version or the book for $150.



#31
Spy Car

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Can you point me in the direction of the full report? My search results turn up either the condensed version or the book for $150.

 

My library system had it to check out. 

 

The report states clearly that canines have no essential need for carbohydrates. I don't want to give a false impression that they are raw diet advocates, and much time is given over to analyzing different types of carbohydrates in the diet that they assume will be fed (even if not essential).

 

But it is an interesting read (if one likes this sort of thing) as a library book.

 

Bill (what, me overthink? :D)


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#32
TRDmom

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OK. I checked my library, but they don't have books on raw feeding (or any type of feeding for that matter). :( I'll have to buy a few more for my personal library. ;)



#33
Spy Car

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OK. I checked my library, but they don't have books on raw feeding. :( I'll have to buy a few more for my personal library. ;)

 

I would not spend $150 on this one. You might want to search for the sled-dog studies by Reynolds and others. They are not "raw" ((per se), as (like most studies on dog nutrition they were sponsored by pet food companies) but compare high protein/high fat foods with higher carbohydrate rations in sled-dog performance. Not contest which is a better approach.

 

Bill


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#34
TRDmom

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I would not spend $150 on this one. You might want to search for the sled-dog studies by Reynolds and others. They are not "raw" ((per se), as (like most studies on dog nutrition they were sponsored by pet food companies) but compare high protein/high fat foods with higher carbohydrate rations in sled-dog performance. Not contest which is a better approach.

 

Bill

 

Even used, $80 was the cheapest I saw. I ordered a couple of others though. I will look into the sled-dog studies.

 

Personally, I like studying topics of interest and having books on hand. Maybe its not everyone's cup of tea, but I spent a lot of time at libraries (reading and working) growing up and university was all about research! LOL



#35
Spy Car

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Even used, $80 was the cheapest I saw. I ordered a couple of others though. I will look into the sled-dog studies.

 

Personally, I like studying topics of interest and having books on hand. Maybe its not everyone's cup of tea, but I spent a lot of time at libraries (reading and working) growing up and university was all about research! LOL

 

All the studies confirm the same thing. Dogs do best when they run on fat, and do poorly on carbohydrates (as they are not a sustainable energy source). High protein levels are important in preventing muscle injury. At above 30% of the diet muscle tears are eliminated, the more one drops below that level of protein the injury rates go up.

 

Even Greyhounds, who need bursts of speed (and then flop) do better on high protein high fat diets than high carb diets.

 

Bill


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#36
TRDmom

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I'm definitely sold on a raw diet. I haven't had "the talk" with my vet. If it happens, I think they would be more comfortable with my choice if they know I've done my homework. Of course, things don't always go as one might intend--I might just say diet is a closed topic. Period. :P But in all seriousness, I like reading, researching, and making sure I'm doing my best to care for my pets.


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#37
Spy Car

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I'm definitely sold on a raw diet. I haven't had "the talk" with my vet. If it happens, I think they would be more comfortable with my choice if they know I've done my homework. Of course, things don't always go as one might intend--I might just say diet is a closed topic. Period. :P But in all seriousness, I like reading, researching, and making sure I'm doing my best to care for my pets.

 

I had "the talk" with my vet. I quickly established that I knew what I was doing, particularly on the phosphorus/calcium balance issue (her main area of concern with a growing pup.

 

The vet is great. She actually imported Chester's grand-sire from Hungary and own him and a half-sibling of my dog. I'm fortunate to have such great vet, and one with breed specific (and one specific) knowledge. Like "family." I can excuse any skepticism. I'd be skeptical too.

 

I can also relate to your passion for research and homework. It is something I share.

 

Bill


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