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Are You Sure You're Feeding A Species Appropriate Diet?

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#1
Poodlebeguiled

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I have this instinct that I have been obeying and that is to feed my dogs vegetables all pulverized along with their meat, bones, tripe etc. I know what everyone says about vegetables and dogs, but I have seen my own dogs eat grass and pick raspberries off my vines. I figure they'll eat anything since they're opportunistic scavengers and I think behaviorally speaking, omnivores. I figure either way, it won't hurt to feed vegetables, which I lightly steam and pulverize. And give them chunks of certain fruits...today for a snack, ripe banana, which they love and a good source of potassium. 

 

It turns out, according to one study I read a while back that dogs have indeed evolved to digest grain just fine. I still don't think they need it and don't give them any, at least not often. But here's some more interesting stuff that I thought might stir up some conversation. If it doesn't, I'll get the hint. 

 

It's a fairly long article but interesting. I have read David Mech in my research of wolves for a book on behavior I was writing. And some of his findings are enlightening. 

 

http://www.dogsnatur...dogs-like-cats/



#2
Poodlebeguiled

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Woops. I must have struck a nerve. I was hoping for a little conversation about the subject. Oh well...



#3
naturalfeddogs

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Well, I feel they don't need grain, and I'm pretty sure they digest it the way most think. Wolves don't go around eating grain in the wild, and prey model is designed to be modeled after their natural diet.

 

No, they don't NEED veggies, and they won't hurt them, in fact they can't digest what little is there without being pureed first. Wolves don't puree anything. 

 

Have you ever seen what dogs do after eating grass? It back soon after, out one end or the other in the same form it went in. Whole. Nibbling on grass does nothing but help an upset stomach. 

 

I have read a good bit from Dogs Naturally that I don't agree with. I don't think they are always too reliable. JMO. 


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#4
TRDmom

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Woops. I must have struck a nerve. I was hoping for a little conversation about the subject. Oh well...

 

I think there isn't much conversation about this not because you "hit a nerve," but because we get these questions often. Not just on this site, but in pretty much every raw feeders group. There is more than one way to provide proper nutrition with a raw diet. Some raw feeders swear by using fruits/vegetables and have dogs in great condition. Other raw feeders do not add fruits/vegetables and have dogs in great condition. With those who do feed fruits/vegetables, they usually are no more than 5-10% of the diet.


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#5
Spy Car

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Echoing my forum-mates, the article doesn't lit a nerve, instead (no offense) it is a bit of a yawn, and very poorly reasoned IMO.

 

Why poorly reasoned? Let's dissect this fluff:

 

1) Dana Scott's first point is to compare the dentition of cats and dogs. 

 

Her conclusion? There's both carnivores. <----direct quote.

 

See those pointy teeth that both dogs and cats have? They’re called canine teeth and they’re meant to tear and rip flesh. In fact all of the teeth of the dog and the cat are pointy, so that, in addition to the pronounced canine teeth, gives us a good idea that they’re both meant to eat meat. They’re both carnivores. <---longer version.

 

Scott has now established both cats and dogs are carnivores who are meant to eat meat

 

2) Then Scott compares dog's( carnivore) teeth with human (omnivore) teeth.

 

We [humans] don’t have those long sharp canine teeth. And if you look at the back of our mouth, you’ll see the molars are flat. The job of the molars is to crush and grind plant matter. This is why we’re classified as omnivores … our teeth tell us we have a dietary need for plant matter.

 

Correct so far.

 

Now let’s look again at the teeth of the dog. You can see they also have molars at the back of their mouth. They’re pointier but they have them. They also have a sharp, interdigitation but they’re clearly there and they look capable of grinding.

 

And here Ms Scott starts going off the rails. Dog "molars" are sharp and function to chomp and crush meat and bone. The dizzying comment is "they look capable of grinding." That's false. Not only are dog's teeth not fly, which is necessary to "grind," but the way their jaws are constructed makes it impossible for dogs to articulate their jaws in a side to side grinding motion the way that humans and other omnivores can.

 

Getting this so wrong undermines any authority of "expertise" in this popular article. Dogs can not grind food. Period.

 

Compare that to the cat, where the molars are very sharp and elongated and much, much less capable of grinding.

 

This is like saying dogs can't grind their food, and cats are even less capable of grinding. It doesn't make sense.

 

3) Then Scott entirely misses the point on Amylase (the digestive enzyme necessary to convert starches to sugars).

 

There’s something we humans have in our mouth that neither dogs or cats have … something called salivary amylase.

 

This is correct. All omnivores produce amylase in their saliva. Dogs don't. Amylase begins the digestive process of carbohydrates as food is masticated. Dogs are wholly lacking in salivary amylase.

 

Do you wonder what the teeth of kibble-fed dogs generally look like hell? It is not just due to the cleaning effects of eating soft-edible bone. Starches and sugars in a canine diet sit in dogs mouths (undigested) and form plaque and tartar. 

 

Neither cats or dogs have salivary amylase. That makes a lot of raw feeders think that dogs can’t digest plant matter. This simply isn’t true.  Because amylase also lives in your dog’s pancreas.

 

Well amylase doesn't "live"  in a dog's pancreas, it can be produced and secreted by the pancreas. While dogs appear to have gained an increased capacity relative to wolves to produce pancreatic amylase, the distribution of this adaptation is poorly distributed. Meaning some dogs (and breeds) has more difficulty than others. The carbohydrate load in a kibble-fed diet put huge strains on the pancreas. Both in producing unnatural amounts of amylase and in spiking blood-sugar levels (the pancreas produces insulin and other blood sugar regulating hormones.

 

With a stressed pancreas, dogs are far more prone to pancreatitis, where spilled digestive juices (including amylase) actually dissolve internal pathways. 

 

Having 4 times "more" amylase that cats or wolves is one of those "statistics lie" tricks, as 4 times very little is no a lot.

 

Yes, dogs (in uneven degrees) can digest some dietary starches. But at what cost? Look at the amount of waste product. Look the the stolen bellies after eating. Look at the rotten teeth. The lackluster coats. The lack of energy. Don't smell the gas.

 

Compare the condition of kibble-fed dogs to a PMR fed dogs and there is no comparison in condition.

 

And if cats are less able to produce pancreatic amylase than dogs, why do the same pet-food manufacturers who make dog cereal also market cat cereal?  

 

End of Part I. 

 

Bill


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#6
Poodlebeguiled

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Yes, it is a bit of a yawn for someone who knows a lot about this subject. I did wonder about that what she said about dogs being able to grind food. No, I know that's false. I had horses all my life as well as dogs all my life and horses grind...side to side. Dogs don't. I also realize that dogs don't have salivary amylase. I just wanted to be on the safe side and make sure they got all their vitamins. But I guess that must come from the meats, organs and bones. And since they don't have amylase further up in the digestive system, veggies never get metabolized even if they are broken down...not until they get near the pancreas, which can actually tax the pancreas. That's what I'm gathering from more recent reading since I posted that above article, thirsty for the right answers and let me tell you, that's hard to know who has the right answers. I read one thing and some of it makes sense, not all. Then I read another thing and it just might make more sense altogether. But I don't know what the author's credentials are. It sounds like she knows what she's talking about. So I guess I'll ditch the vegetables. Here's the article I read since that one I posted. What do you think? It might bore you too. It's very long. http://primalpooch.c...and-vegetables/



#7
Spy Car

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Yes, it is a bit of a yawn for someone who knows a lot about this subject. I did wonder about that what she said about dogs being able to grind food. No, I know that's false. I had horses all my life as well as dogs all my life and horses grind...side to side. Dogs don't. I also realize that dogs don't have salivary amylase. I just wanted to be on the safe side and make sure they got all their vitamins. But I guess that must come from the meats, organs and bones. And since they don't have amylase further up in the digestive system, veggies never get metabolized even if they are broken down...not until they get near the pancreas, which can actually tax the pancreas. That's what I'm gathering from more recent reading since I posted that above article, thirsty for the right answers and let me tell you, that's hard to know who has the right answers. I read one thing and some of it makes sense, not all. Then I read another thing and it just might make more sense altogether. But I don't know what the author's credentials are. It sounds like she knows what she's talking about. So I guess I'll ditch the vegetables. Here's the article I read since that one I posted. What do you think? It might bore you too. It's very long. http://primalpooch.c...and-vegetables/

 

This article is well reasoned.

 

We know via scientific studies that dogs fed high protein high fat diets perform much better than ones fed high carbohydrate diets. Carbohydrates interfere with the fat-burning metabolism, and produce short term bursts of energy followed by crashes.

 

What we don't have are studies comparing a pure PMR type diet with a similar diet that contains small additions of fruits and vegetables. I'd love to see the science. My best guess is that feeding plant based foods pulls away the percentage of optimal nutrients, spikes blood sugars, and provides nothing essential in the diet. The National Research Council, which is the scientific body upon whose work all feeding programs are based, says carbohydrates are not essential to a canine diet.

 

It is not a major issue for me if someone chooses to feed their dog small amounts of fruits and vegetables. I just don't think this is improving the diet (and that it is likely the opposite).

 

I've got one "guinea pig" and I could not be more impressed with his condition. Super-lean and well-muscled. Huge stamina. Clean teeth. Fresh breath, Soft coat. Clear yes. Clean breath. No digestive issue. No belly swelling after meals.

 

The boy says Chester looks like a "super model." So I'm sticking what clearly works. If some other raw feeder want to provide berries to their dogs, those dogs will still be way ahead of dogs fed a cereal diet. Are those carbs/sugars and advantage? I don't believe they are.

 

I've seen nothing in the veterinary literature (and I've read everything I could get my hands on re performance dog (hunting, sled, and greyhound) studies around performance and nutrition, and have not seen any evidence that carbohydrates are a positive, and plenty to show the downsides.

 

Bill


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#8
Poodlebeguiled

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Thanks for your posts. I was just reading this  and if you scroll down to "feeding practices" it says that dogs are descended from omnivores! Wha???? I thought they were descended from wolves. Woah. Do they consider canids to be omnivores? I'm still trying to get to the bottom of this. Here's another thing. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dog-food-carbohydrates/ That is short, simple and to the point, isn't it. 

 

Anyhow, I appreciate your view points. Great!!  :)



#9
naturalfeddogs

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They are decended from wolves. In fact, they are the same species and so closely related in DNA that they can inner breed. You can't get much closer than that.

 

You just can't believe all you read. It's not all correct.



#10
Poodlebeguiled

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I know what you mean. That was from the National Research Council's link which I thought I posted. Maybe it didn't let me because it's pdf. I'll try again here. http://dels.nas.edu/...n_final_fix.pdf Or maybe I made a mistake. Yeah, I know they're not omnivores other than what you might say...behaviorally. They will eat other things and can subsist off of some other things. In fact, wolves are seen eating berries when in season. They may like the sweet taste of them since mammals all seem to like sweet things. But it's not a major part of their diet. 


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#11
naturalfeddogs

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Yea, the berry eating thing is just for taste. Nutritionally, nothing is there. 


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#12
Spy Car

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Thanks for your posts. I was just reading this  and if you scroll down to "feeding practices" it says that dogs are descended from omnivores! Wha???? I thought they were descended from wolves. Woah. Do they consider canids to be omnivores? I'm still trying to get to the bottom of this. Here's another thing. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dog-food-carbohydrates/ That is short, simple and to the point, isn't it. 

 

Anyhow, I appreciate your view points. Great!!  :)

 

 

There was a study, sponsored IMS by the Iams Pet food company, where inactive "couch-potato" type dogs on a high carbohydrate diet were tested to see what their aerobic capacity (as measured by VO2 Max scores) was. Predictably, these dogs scored poorly.

 

Then, with no other changes in their routines, the dogs were moved over to a high protein high fat diet (not raw). After a time the dogs were re-tested, with dramatic improvements in VO2 Max scores. 

 

We don't have an controlled studies to my awareness that tried the same thing with a zero-carbohydrate raw diet, or modified raw diets that include a small percentage of berries, etc. I'd love to see such tests conducted. But there have been a myriad of performance dog studies. All show the higher protein higher fat diets producing better energy than a high carb diet.

 

There are no know nutrients in plants that canines eating a balanced PMR diet require. I would make modifications based on evidence. But for now, my eyes and extrapolation of the available evidence leads be to think that carbohydrates for dogs are best avoided. I would not de-friend a raw feeder who decided to feed small amounts of fruit and vegetables to their dog, but that's not where my reading of the evidence leads me at this time.

 

If I had a bias coming into raw feeding it was thinking a little bit of plant based food might be a positive, but that changed after reading volumes of studies and reports on canine nutrition. I do hope there are future studies more directly on point between pure PMR vs a modified raw diet that included very small feedings for greens and fruits.

 

Bill


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#13
Poodlebeguiled

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Thanks for the post there Spycar. Yes, the test results don't surprise me other than Iams sponsored it. Dogs need lots of protein. Even when my dogs ate kibble and canned, it was a "premium" grain free and had several meats listed and high protein. They did well on it, had nice coats and lots of energy. But the most noticeable changes I'm seeing since starting raw are in my 14 year old. I swear he's less arthritic, (I give him green lipid mussel powder too) more playful, more energy and shinier coat. I had a dog live to be 18 years old on Purina dog chow and Gravy train and another to 15 but he got hepatitis. These were not toy breeds. Back in those days though, they may have made commercial food better than they do in many cases now. And nowadays I have lost trust in dog food companies. I like seeing what my dogs are eating and like fresh food for them, just like we should eat whole, fresh food, not something out of a box every day.

 

One thing I'm more interested in than nutrients from the vegetables is the fiber aspect. My dogs aren't being fed whole prey animals. There's no hair or feathers. I notice on my walks coyote poo and there's hair in that. I believe it's what helps make it come out. lol. Roughage. I was thinking about mixing in a little tad bit of hair when I groom my Poodles because I'm NOT going to feed whole animals that look like darling little pets. That Hare Today, Gone Tomorrow online store sells whole Guinea Pigs and mice etc. I get it that their digestive tracts perhaps don't need as much fiber as we do. But sometimes I think my dogs are having a hard time pooping. I see this morning, it was quite firm and light....kind of yellowish, not white yet. So, my planned duck feet for breakfast will have to wait and they'll get just muscle meat and organ this morning...maybe those bones at dinner time. It's hard to feed these tiny dogs because there are hardly any bones small enough to make it 10%. I think the chicken necks may prove to be the best where I can give them a very small piece of chokable size and cross my fingers. Then the rest of the meal can be meat, organ, some tripe included. (every meal I'm giving them a small piece of tripe and every meal a small piece of organ meat, alternating between liver and other organ meats like kidney and spleen.) 

 

Since I've been on the fence about vegetables, I've given them like a half to one tsp of mixed veggies that have been lightly steamed and pulverized and maybe a tiny dab of pumpkin because it seems to make their poops nice and not too hard, but not too loose either. So, I don't know...back and forth. I think they're getting such a tiny amount when I do feed them that, it probably doesn't matter much. They're still getting loads of meat and bone etc. I go back and forth because there is so much to read online and there are different opinions. There is also science that says some vegetables are called for. 

 

Anyhow, I appreciate the stimulating discussion and interesting studies that you have. I'd love to read more. I'm an information glutton. And thanks for not defriending me. lol. Even if I decide to feed a little berry now and then, I'm still a really nice dog Mom.  :D


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#14
Spy Car

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Thanks for the post there Spycar. Yes, the test results don't surprise me other than Iams sponsored it. Dogs need lots of protein. Even when my dogs ate kibble and canned, it was a "premium" grain free and had several meats listed and high protein. They did well on it, had nice coats and lots of energy. But the most noticeable changes I'm seeing since starting raw are in my 14 year old. I swear he's less arthritic, (I give him green lipid mussel powder too) more playful, more energy and shinier coat. I had a dog live to be 18 years old on Purina dog chow and Gravy train and another to 15 but he got hepatitis. These were not toy breeds. Back in those days though, they may have made commercial food better than they do in many cases now. And nowadays I have lost trust in dog food companies. I like seeing what my dogs are eating and like fresh food for them, just like we should eat whole, fresh food, not something out of a box every day.

 

One thing I'm more interested in than nutrients from the vegetables is the fiber aspect. My dogs aren't being fed whole prey animals. There's no hair or feathers. I notice on my walks coyote poo and there's hair in that. I believe it's what helps make it come out. lol. Roughage. I was thinking about mixing in a little tad bit of hair when I groom my Poodles because I'm NOT going to feed whole animals that look like darling little pets. That Hare Today, Gone Tomorrow online store sells whole Guinea Pigs and mice etc. I get it that their digestive tracts perhaps don't need as much fiber as we do. But sometimes I think my dogs are having a hard time pooping. I see this morning, it was quite firm and light....kind of yellowish, not white yet. So, my planned duck feet for breakfast will have to wait and they'll get just muscle meat and organ this morning...maybe those bones at dinner time. It's hard to feed these tiny dogs because there are hardly any bones small enough to make it 10%. I think the chicken necks may prove to be the best where I can give them a very small piece of chokable size and cross my fingers. Then the rest of the meal can be meat, organ, some tripe included. (every meal I'm giving them a small piece of tripe and every meal a small piece of organ meat, alternating between liver and other organ meats like kidney and spleen.) 

 

Since I've been on the fence about vegetables, I've given them like a half to one tsp of mixed veggies that have been lightly steamed and pulverized and maybe a tiny dab of pumpkin because it seems to make their poops nice and not too hard, but not too loose either. So, I don't know...back and forth. I think they're getting such a tiny amount when I do feed them that, it probably doesn't matter much. They're still getting loads of meat and bone etc. I go back and forth because there is so much to read online and there are different opinions. There is also science that says some vegetables are called for. 

 

Anyhow, I appreciate the stimulating discussion and interesting studies that you have. I'd love to read more. I'm an information glutton. And thanks for not defriending me. lol. Even if I decide to feed a little berry now and then, I'm still a really nice dog Mom.  :D

 

I'm sure you're a great dog mom.

 

I'm really non-ideological about things like a dog diet. I'm trying to follow the science and good reasoning to the best of my ability,  and would switch positions in a heart-beat if there was good evidence to do so. I also know there are big limits to what we know on a scientifiic basis. We are all forced to make "educated guesses" when it comes to designing DIY dog diets. I have few doubts that a modified raw (PRM plus some small amount of plant based food) will be vastly superior to cereal-based kibble. So not "a hill to die on" for me.

 

I would like to know what the tipping point is where carbohydrates start to disrupt a dogs fat-burning metabolism. In higher quantities carbohydrates do negatively impact energy delivery, with an initial boost in blood glycogen followed by a crash. Same question on blood sugar levels and the insulin response. And wonder about the impact of sugars on teeth. 

 

I actually feed my Vizsla a fair amount of fur. One item that I can get (cheap) I'll call porcine auricle (to avoid driving up demand for this item with local raw feeders) but you can figure it out. Crunchy and has hair.

 

Even without fur, my V has never had issues eliminating.

 

As to feedings, I'd advocate for once-a-day for mature dogs. Feeding post-exertion and post-cool down, when the day is done. Because a raw high-protein high-fat diet delivers sustained energy so evenly there is no reason to do "breakfast" IMO. This is a human-type construct, and the evidence in the scientific literature is clear dogs do better running on empty stomachs. They will be more vital on one meal. This also makes it easier to avoid the whip-saw of overly boney meals alternated with underly-boney meals. 10% bone (or thereabouts) seems to keep most dogs stools a good consistency. Some may take a wee bit more. I'd consider one-meal a day that is near PMR ratios. And see how that works.

 

Good to hear the old dog is better on raw. One commonly read that arthritic dogs seem less inflamed when they are off kibble.

 

I had a long Part II of my critique of the original article, but my browser crashed, and poof! Oh well.

 

Bill


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#15
Poodlebeguiled

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I was thinking about the one meal a day. I don't know that my dogs would allow such a nervy and inhospitable move from me. And the other thing is one of my dogs is about 4-5 lbs and the other around 7, though they might be more now as they got a little fat. I have been cutting them back lately and they might be coming down now a tad. Anyhow, I worry about the potential of hypoglycemia with the tiny toy, Maurice. It's more common in puppies and he'd probably be okay and I could always give a little treat, which I do anyhow as a reinforcer for behavior I especially like or when training on a walk. (they get Trader Joe's dehydrated liver treats) But they really shouldn't go too long without anything during their waking hours. But I could certainly try it. I have not been giving bone at every meal, but every other meal...or they get too stopped up. 

 

I would like to know what the tipping point is where carbohydrates start to disrupt a dogs fat-burning metabolism. 

 

 Yes, I was reading about this...that too much in the way of carbs could actually cause some problems in that respect. They really need protein and fat and that's about it. (probably) LOL. I commend you for finding and feeding a real animal with hair. I'm going to be thinking about that a little bit. haha. Thanks again!



#16
Spy Car

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I was thinking about the one meal a day. I don't know that my dogs would allow such a nervy and inhospitable move from me. And the other thing is one of my dogs is about 4-5 lbs and the other around 7, though they might be more now as they got a little fat. I have been cutting them back lately and they might be coming down now a tad. Anyhow, I worry about the potential of hypoglycemia with the tiny toy, Maurice. It's more common in puppies and he'd probably be okay and I could always give a little treat, which I do anyhow as a reinforcer for behavior I especially like or when training on a walk. (they get Trader Joe's dehydrated liver treats) But they really shouldn't go too long without anything during their waking hours. But I could certainly try it. I have not been giving bone at every meal, but every other meal...or they get too stopped up. 

 

 Yes, I was reading about this...that too much in the way of carbs could actually cause some problems in that respect. They really need protein and fat and that's about it. (probably) LOL. I commend you for finding and feeding a real animal with hair. I'm going to be thinking about that a little bit. haha. Thanks again!

 

 

Conjecture on my part, but with no carbs and fat as the primary fuel source (with protein secondary) I'd doubt the dog will suffer with hypoglycemia. The beauty of fat burning is that glucose is released slowly and steadily. No spikes like carbohydrates. The dogs should also lean out as fat burning is far more efficient. I would at least try it. My best is the energy goes up, especially as they get fully conditioned to fat-burning. 

 

Don't commend me. I just have a butcher that caters to the raw dog market who delivers to my area. These are cheap, nutritious, and are a great chew.

 

Bill


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#17
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Well, I'm going to try it. What do you think about giving a tiny snack instead of a whole meal? Maybe just for a while to gradually get them use to no breakfast or maybe do breakfast, but no dinner. (?) That way they'd have all that fuel in high supply during the day when they really need it...when we go on our walks or hikes. And then just reduce it until it's no more than a little treat? They're going to tell me when it's 8:30 and time for breakfast. lol. They are very punctual in their reminding as they watch the clock. And yes, I have a hard time convincing them. They're Poodles. If you never had a Poodle, you might not know how almost human they are...incredibly intuitive. I swear they're reading my mind sometimes. Scary smart as they look way deep into my eyes and beyond, into my soul it would seem. Once a day will mean more at one time. My Matisse just threw up now from last night's dinner. Oh no! Gotta go. 



#18
naturalfeddogs

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Yea, a snack would be just fine in place of A meal. Mine eat once a day, and occasionally someone will get hunger type pukes. So I give snacks just to put something in their stomach to hold them over untileal time. Usually,  I give chicken feet (their favorite) or frog legs. Even some chicken/turkey hearts too sometimes.


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#19
Spy Car

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Well, I'm going to try it. What do you think about giving a tiny snack instead of a whole meal? Maybe just for a while to gradually get them use to no breakfast or maybe do breakfast, but no dinner. (?) That way they'd have all that fuel in high supply during the day when they really need it...when we go on our walks or hikes. And then just reduce it until it's no more than a little treat? They're going to tell me when it's 8:30 and time for breakfast. lol. They are very punctual in their reminding as they watch the clock. And yes, I have a hard time convincing them. They're Poodles. If you never had a Poodle, you might not know how almost human they are...incredibly intuitive. I swear they're reading my mind sometimes. Scary smart as they look way deep into my eyes and beyond, into my soul it would seem. Once a day will mean more at one time. My Matisse just threw up now from last night's dinner. Oh no! Gotta go. 

 

Studies I read suggest dogs actually have more fuel "for when they really need it" when they are fasted, not when they've been freshly fed. That can't go on forever with sled-dogs or hunting dogs on multi-day outings, but it challenges the hypoglycemic (you need to have breakfast to have energy) model we ascribe to as humans.

 

This will be amplified by eating a diet where energy comes from fats and protein, and not carbs. 

 

I would not feed the dogs (even poodles) before a hike, but would wait until afterwards when they were cooled down form the days activities. it is better, by far, for dogs to run on empty stomaches. So I'd feed one balanced meal. If you don't witness improvement in stamina and condition, you can always change the routine. I just expect (once the dog is off carbs and conditioned to fat-burning) that you'll see increased energy.

 

Bill


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Poodlebeguiled

Poodlebeguiled

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LOL. I don't want to see increased energy! LOL! They're already like sled dogs as it is or the energizer bunny. And I don't let them run or do hard exercise right after eating...never have in my 55 years of having dogs. I've had dogs that are prone to bloat and at that time, it was considered risky business to let them run hard after eating. I gave mine a little yogurt...just a TBS to have some licks a few times over by the three little dogs. Then they got a couple little cubes of tripe. But anyhow, I think that's a good idea of yours to do one meal a day so we'll see about that during the next week and see how they do. Thanks for all your tips guys!


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