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Best Answer naturalfeddogs , 06 June 2016 - 07:56 AM

Poops will be much smaller on raw, due to being able to digest so much of it compared to kibble. Mine all poop about once a day, tiny little turds. If you see excess straining to poop, or the poop is actually coming out of the shoot white, then it's too much bone. But even still, if you want to add some boneless to it and see how she does, you can.

 

As long as all is going well poop wise, stay on chicken for about a week and a half. After that, you can add some turkey and do the same. Then move on to pork, venison, beef etc... As far as adding organs, I have always waited until closer to the end of the protein introductions, but once you have started red meats you can add a VERY TINY amount of liver. I recommend giving it with bone, because liver is really rich. All of mine are well transitioned to raw, but I still give organs with something bone in. 

 

I don't use any percentages at all. Those are nothing but guidelines, and all dogs are different. I go by body condition and activity level, and feed accordingly. No dog in the wild is worried about percentages. That is totally made up by man at some point along the way. If it helps you, that's absolutely fine, but don't get hung up on it and let it stress you out. 

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#1
Ashley K

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hello there, 

 

I've decided that the prey model raw diet is the best for my puppy. Is there a different part of the chicken you would recommend besides the chicken backs for my newbie pup? Is there any bone/part of the chicken i should avoid? My puppy is about 10 lbs right now 4 months old.. I am really nervous to put her on this diet but also very excited. Should the meat be completely thawed before i serve it? If i get the chicken from the grocery store butcher do i need to freeze it first or can i serve it that day? 

 

thanks so much for your help!


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#2
naturalfeddogs

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No need to freeze it first, you can feed it that day as is. I would suggest starting with drumsticks first, and go from there. If need be, you can use a hammer or kitchen mallet and smash it some to help encourage chewing. Back off as she gets better at it. 

 

If you want to feed frozen you can. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it can help a puppy with the teething too.


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#3
Ashley K

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Hi! Thank you for your response! I went with leg quarters but cut it in half and gave her a thigh. (I read this reply after the fact, I did a little more reading to make sure I didn't need to freeze) She loved it! And chewed well, I made sure to watch her the whole time. She was pretty hungry though since she was in a fasted state so I will update again tomorrow. I'll feed a whole quarter.
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#4
naturalfeddogs

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Freezing would kill parasites which live in intestines (with the exception of wild boar). Intestines aren't fed anyway, and freezing won't affect the bacteria which is in all raw meat, and doesn't affect normally healthy dogs at all. 


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#5
Spy Car

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Better IMO to completely avoid feeding chicken backs alone as the amount of bone is wildly out of balance with prey-model ratios, and feeding them without adding serious amounts of boneless chicken often leads to problems like bad constipation and vomiting. Too much bone is an assault on the GI tract. Not good.

 

strongly disagree with the advice in the Getting Started Guide on this forum, and fervently wish it was revised to reflect better practices.

 

Drumsticks are nice in that you can grasp them easily, and hand-feeding in the beginning has advantages (including bonding, allowing one to practice "give" and "take," and reducing odds of a pup swallowing too large a piece whole.

 

Wings have a hooked joint bone that can be a choking hazard (and are also very bony)

 

A PRM diet is so worth doing for your puppy's health. It is hard not to feel somewhat apprehensive at first, going so against the grain of American dog culture, but you will see in very non-subtle ways how much better your pup develops vs puppies on a standard kibble diet. 

 

Best wishes!

 

Bill


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#6
Poodlebeguiled

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Spycar, could you outline which parts of the getting started guide you would change and how you'd change it? I've come to respect so much of what you've written during the time I've been here. Plus, your dog...Oooooo la-la! Sheer stealth and sheen. I was just now going through it...haven't finished it all yet. But I am doing some real no no's. For instance, the universal advice to give big pieces of things. I give my dogs pieces of chicken bones and they're small! I've been feeding an approximately balanced meal each meal as you suggested, which has helped them become more regular in their bm's. When I was feeding bones every other day, they'd be constipated that day and too loose the next. But with this way, they're only getting 10% of their meal in bone, of course, which means it's teeeeeeeensy. Like a half of the largest joint of a wing or a toe or two from a duck foot. We're talkin' 4 lb Poodle, 7 lb Poodle and 10 lb Chi mix. If I feed more than that, they'll get impacted. They do seem to chomp on it quite a few times. Matisse, my 7 lb Poodle, perhaps not as much as Maurice, the wee one. So it is a little unnerving. I wonder if I should go back and try the every few days thing. Maybe it was for another reason they were getting loose...like too new at this? 

 

The other thing I didn't do is wait so long for liver and even other meats...I was in a hurry to get that variety in them. I think I started out with just chicken but in a week or less, I moved onto something else for a few days, then onto something else. And the next thing I knew I wasn't paying any attention to that and just fed them all kinds of stuff. Luckily, they had no sensitivities or allergies to anything. I'm not even convinced this is necessary actually because commercial food that they had been eating was varied also. There were all kinds of formulas in the dry and canned foods. I fed kibble, canned, frozen raw sometimes, dehydrated raw from Stellas sometimes. I just switched them every day when they were on canned, which they were most of the time with some kibble also. I chose the "premium" foods and apparently they have lots of different meats. So they were use to eating chicken, lamb, venison, beef, buffalo, duck and more. Maybe they just got use to sampling something different pretty much every day.

 

Anyhow, I was wondering what types of concepts or advice in that guide you see differently. What would you or anyone reading this change? 

 

Ashley, as far as freezing, I had always understood that meat should be frozen for two weeks to kill most parasites. But Pacific northwest fish has a parasite that is not killed by freezing, only by cooking. So, I don't feed that. I feed Icelandic sardines. Anyhow, maybe I misunderstood and it is not important IF the parasites only reside in the intestines. BUT...what if they escape the intestines and work their way into the heart muscle or lungs? Or during butchering, someone handles the disgusting parts and then cross contamination occurs and a couple icky parasites wind up on something else? I feed hearts and gizzards. And lung for an organ meat. Anyhow, maybe I'm wrong about the necessity of freezing first...which is good because I have, a couple of times forgotten to freeze and just fed when I brought something home. So far, so good. lol. Also, I often times find that although I take the meat from the freezer the evening before and put it in the fridge, it is not always completely thawed. I give it to them anyway. It works out fine. I'd be hesitant myself, to feed a frozen bone because maybe it could break a tooth if it's too hard. I feed chunks of meat and a piece of bone and a little organ each afternoon around 4:30. Then take out of the freezer what's for the next evening/late afternoon meal. 

 

Anyhow, hope things will go well for you. It takes a little adjustment time, for sure. But it's been well worth it for my dogs. What kind of dog do you have Ashley? 10 weeks old! What a cute age. This is going to be an adventure.



#7
naturalfeddogs

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Chicken backs are a lot of bone, and most people don't feed them regular, only for firming up poops if they are having a problem. But, they aren't "bad", so to speak. Dogs kill and eat chickens, and when they do they eat the backs too. I wouldn't feed them as a regular bone in meal, but they are ok on occasion. It's just bone. That's all.



#8
naturalfeddogs

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Spycar, could you outline which parts of the getting started guide you would change and how you'd change it? I've come to respect so much of what you've written during the time I've been here. Plus, your dog...Oooooo la-la! Sheer stealth and sheen. I was just now going through it...haven't finished it all yet. But I am doing some real no no's. For instance, the universal advice to give big pieces of things. I give my dogs pieces of chicken bones and they're small! I've been feeding an approximately balanced meal each meal as you suggested, which has helped them become more regular in their bm's. When I was feeding bones every other day, they'd be constipated that day and too loose the next. But with this way, they're only getting 10% of their meal in bone, of course, which means it's teeeeeeeensy. Like a half of the largest joint of a wing or a toe or two from a duck foot. We're talkin' 4 lb Poodle, 7 lb Poodle and 10 lb Chi mix. If I feed more than that, they'll get impacted. They do seem to chomp on it quite a few times. Matisse, my 7 lb Poodle, perhaps not as much as Maurice, the wee one. So it is a little unnerving. I wonder if I should go back and try the every few days thing. Maybe it was for another reason they were getting loose...like too new at this? 

 

The other thing I didn't do is wait so long for liver and even other meats...I was in a hurry to get that variety in them. I think I started out with just chicken but in a week or less, I moved onto something else for a few days, then onto something else. And the next thing I knew I wasn't paying any attention to that and just fed them all kinds of stuff. Luckily, they had no sensitivities or allergies to anything. I'm not even convinced this is necessary actually because commercial food that they had been eating was varied also. There were all kinds of formulas in the dry and canned foods. I fed kibble, canned, frozen raw sometimes, dehydrated raw from Stellas sometimes. I just switched them every day when they were on canned, which they were most of the time with some kibble also. I chose the "premium" foods and apparently they have lots of different meats. So they were use to eating chicken, lamb, venison, beef, buffalo, duck and more. Maybe they just got use to sampling something different pretty much every day.

 

Anyhow, I was wondering what types of concepts or advice in that guide you see differently. What would you or anyone reading this change? 

 

Ashley, as far as freezing, I had always understood that meat should be frozen for two weeks to kill most parasites. But Pacific northwest fish has a parasite that is not killed by freezing, only by cooking. So, I don't feed that. I feed Icelandic sardines. Anyhow, maybe I misunderstood and it is not important IF the parasites only reside in the intestines. BUT...what if they escape the intestines and work their way into the heart muscle or lungs? Or during butchering, someone handles the disgusting parts and then cross contamination occurs and a couple icky parasites wind up on something else? I feed hearts and gizzards. And lung for an organ meat. Anyhow, maybe I'm wrong about the necessity of freezing first...which is good because I have, a couple of times forgotten to freeze and just fed when I brought something home. So far, so good. lol. Also, I often times find that although I take the meat from the freezer the evening before and put it in the fridge, it is not always completely thawed. I give it to them anyway. It works out fine. I'd be hesitant myself, to feed a frozen bone because maybe it could break a tooth if it's too hard. I feed chunks of meat and a piece of bone and a little organ each afternoon around 4:30. Then take out of the freezer what's for the next evening/late afternoon meal. 

 

Anyhow, hope things will go well for you. It takes a little adjustment time, for sure. But it's been well worth it for my dogs. What kind of dog do you have Ashley? 10 weeks old! What a cute age. This is going to be an adventure.

Wild boar are the ones who do have parasites that also live in the muscle, and like the salmon poisoning, freezing doesn't affect it. Otherwise, parasites are going to be in the intestines. I have fed plenty of meat over the years fresh not frozen. If freezing was a must, wolves, coyotes, african wild dogs etc.. wouldn't be able to thrive.


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#9
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Wild boar are the ones who do have parasites that also live in the muscle, and like the salmon poisoning, freezing doesn't affect it. Otherwise, parasites are going to be in the intestines. I have fed plenty of meat over the years fresh not frozen. If freezing was a must, wolves, coyotes, african wild dogs etc.. wouldn't be able to thrive.

 

Oh duh! :startle:  Why didn't I think of that? LOL. Of course! Those animals would never have evolved to pass on their survival genes if everything they ate had miserable parasites in it. 


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#10
Spy Car

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Spycar, could you outline which parts of the getting started guide you would change and how you'd change it? I've come to respect so much of what you've written during the time I've been here. Plus, your dog...Oooooo la-la! Sheer stealth and sheen. I was just now going through it...haven't finished it all yet. But I am doing some real no no's. For instance, the universal advice to give big pieces of things. I give my dogs pieces of chicken bones and they're small! I've been feeding an approximately balanced meal each meal as you suggested, which has helped them become more regular in their bm's. When I was feeding bones every other day, they'd be constipated that day and too loose the next. But with this way, they're only getting 10% of their meal in bone, of course, which means it's teeeeeeeensy. Like a half of the largest joint of a wing or a toe or two from a duck foot. We're talkin' 4 lb Poodle, 7 lb Poodle and 10 lb Chi mix. If I feed more than that, they'll get impacted. They do seem to chomp on it quite a few times. Matisse, my 7 lb Poodle, perhaps not as much as Maurice, the wee one. So it is a little unnerving. I wonder if I should go back and try the every few days thing. Maybe it was for another reason they were getting loose...like too new at this? 

 

The other thing I didn't do is wait so long for liver and even other meats...I was in a hurry to get that variety in them. I think I started out with just chicken but in a week or less, I moved onto something else for a few days, then onto something else. And the next thing I knew I wasn't paying any attention to that and just fed them all kinds of stuff. Luckily, they had no sensitivities or allergies to anything. I'm not even convinced this is necessary actually because commercial food that they had been eating was varied also. There were all kinds of formulas in the dry and canned foods. I fed kibble, canned, frozen raw sometimes, dehydrated raw from Stellas sometimes. I just switched them every day when they were on canned, which they were most of the time with some kibble also. I chose the "premium" foods and apparently they have lots of different meats. So they were use to eating chicken, lamb, venison, beef, buffalo, duck and more. Maybe they just got use to sampling something different pretty much every day.

 

Anyhow, I was wondering what types of concepts or advice in that guide you see differently. What would you or anyone reading this change? 

 

Ashley, as far as freezing, I had always understood that meat should be frozen for two weeks to kill most parasites. But Pacific northwest fish has a parasite that is not killed by freezing, only by cooking. So, I don't feed that. I feed Icelandic sardines. Anyhow, maybe I misunderstood and it is not important IF the parasites only reside in the intestines. BUT...what if they escape the intestines and work their way into the heart muscle or lungs? Or during butchering, someone handles the disgusting parts and then cross contamination occurs and a couple icky parasites wind up on something else? I feed hearts and gizzards. And lung for an organ meat. Anyhow, maybe I'm wrong about the necessity of freezing first...which is good because I have, a couple of times forgotten to freeze and just fed when I brought something home. So far, so good. lol. Also, I often times find that although I take the meat from the freezer the evening before and put it in the fridge, it is not always completely thawed. I give it to them anyway. It works out fine. I'd be hesitant myself, to feed a frozen bone because maybe it could break a tooth if it's too hard. I feed chunks of meat and a piece of bone and a little organ each afternoon around 4:30. Then take out of the freezer what's for the next evening/late afternoon meal. 

 

Anyhow, hope things will go well for you. It takes a little adjustment time, for sure. But it's been well worth it for my dogs. What kind of dog do you have Ashley? 10 weeks old! What a cute age. This is going to be an adventure.

 

I have two major issues with the Getting Started Guide, and one that's more minor.

 

The biggest problem is the recommendation to start with way too much bone.

 

The Guide says:  

 

I recommend feeding chicken backs for the first 2-3 days...After the 3rd day I would add in chicken quarters alternating with backs every other meal. 

 

I think this is very bad advice. Really bad. And on this forum, other forums, in real-life discussions the consequences of over-feeding bone replicate themselves time and again. The amount of bone in chicken backs alone is excessive. It can cause GI distress, vomiting, and constipation. There is no good reason to over-do the amount of bone to this degree. Quarters/drumsticks/thighs already have more than adequate bone (about 2.5 times PMR ratios) to keep stools firm, and nearly doubling that again with backs most likely to cause problems.

 

The advise to over-load dogs with excessive bone is done with the aim of reducing the chances of explosive diarrhea (aka cannon-butt); however, the cause of cannon-butt is almost always a dog's being feed a greater percentage of fat in their raw meals than they are accustomed to eating. Dogs/and puppies need to be conditioned to fat-burning and fat-metabolizing. Fat burning is the best possible thing for dogs, but especially for those transitioning from high carbohydrate diets, a rapid change over to a high-fat diet can cause GI upset. Fat takes different digestive enzymes to be released by the pancreas, and there are even inter-cellular changes that happen when dogs are conditioned to burning fats.

 

So to prevent "cannon-butt" I'd advise stripping the skin off the chicken pieces at first. The leaving progressively more of the skin on as stool prove firm. This approach gets at the source of the problem, as opposed to over-feeding bone to compensate for too much initial fat.

 

Fat is vital to good canine health, and should be the primary energy source over the long-term, a dog just need a little time to condition to a higher fat diet.

 

The second major issue I have (which you IMO wisely ignored) is the advice to delay organs for many months. I think this is bad advice nutritionally (as organs are vital sources of nutrients that puppies especially should be getting) and also bad advice from the perspective of developing food aversions. Having a dog that doesn't like liver, kidney, or other organs is a huge problem, because organ consumption IS NOT OPTIONAL.

 

So I'd advise anyone to start feeding organs (like chicken liver) very early, but to start with tiny pieces and to work up.

 

The more minor point is the "progression." While it is probably smart to introduce one protein at a time, to see is there are any issues, the specific order is not set in stone. After chicken, I'd prefer to start something like lamb or beef where one can start serving their organs (in slowly increasing amounts) earlier. Pork (listed as an early suggestion) seems to be a protein that takes many dogs some getting used to, so I'd personally move pork to a late-stage protein. Availability and economy would be factors for me too. I think any number of progressions would be fine.

 

I do think that balanced PMR ratio meals made it easier on the dog's digestive system. It is certainly my habit and I've never had my Vizlsa have issues with constipation or diarrhea.  

 

Thanks for the kind words about Chester. He gets stronger every day.

 

Bill


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#11
Ashley K

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Hi Everyone! i appreciate all the help. 

 

She'd been eating drumsticks and thighs the past couple days. I'm thinking I should start adding in more meat. Her stool  has been firm but I;m wondering if she is pooping enough? maybe twice a day but sometimes they are small amounts, so I am wondering if she has a little too much bone in her diet??

Also, when would be a good time to start adding variety and organ meat? today is day 3 of full raw diet. 

since she is still a growing pup but will probably be around the 25 to 30 lb range when grown, how long should i stick to the 10% of BW vurses the 2-3% of adult hood weight?

 

again thank you so much for the helpful advice! 


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#12
naturalfeddogs

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✓  Best Answer

Poops will be much smaller on raw, due to being able to digest so much of it compared to kibble. Mine all poop about once a day, tiny little turds. If you see excess straining to poop, or the poop is actually coming out of the shoot white, then it's too much bone. But even still, if you want to add some boneless to it and see how she does, you can.

 

As long as all is going well poop wise, stay on chicken for about a week and a half. After that, you can add some turkey and do the same. Then move on to pork, venison, beef etc... As far as adding organs, I have always waited until closer to the end of the protein introductions, but once you have started red meats you can add a VERY TINY amount of liver. I recommend giving it with bone, because liver is really rich. All of mine are well transitioned to raw, but I still give organs with something bone in. 

 

I don't use any percentages at all. Those are nothing but guidelines, and all dogs are different. I go by body condition and activity level, and feed accordingly. No dog in the wild is worried about percentages. That is totally made up by man at some point along the way. If it helps you, that's absolutely fine, but don't get hung up on it and let it stress you out. 


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#13
Spy Car

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As Jenny said above, the amount of waste will be much less than on kibble. Dramatically less. Ditto on adding more boneless meat particularly if the dog is straining to go, or stools look hard. I'd also be patient. Going a week or so before adding something new is being cautious, which can matter if one's dog has a problem. I would always feed bone with organ, but I feed every meal with approximately 10% bone. When adding organs, just start with very small pieces and work up, and feed along with bone.

 

As to feeding by percentages, I'm of a different mind. The best veterinary evidence points to their being a critical balance of calcium and phosphorus (in a 1.2:1 ratio) that even the lowest quality kibbles account for in their formulas. By feeding PRM ratios (80:10:10) the sample meals I've run a nutritional analysis on (using published nutritional data on various parts) shows they hit the target for Ca:K almost exactly.  Of the "issues" my fine veterinarian has with raw feeding, maintaining this balance is paramount. I think this is reasonable and is the position of the veterinary science.

 

While I have no argument with the idea that nutrients can be balanced over time, I also believe that feeding that are as close to PRM ratios as possible are the easiest for dogs to digest without the ups and downs of feeding overly-boney meals (which can cause upset), or overly organ rich meals (which can cause upset), or meals with inadequate bone to meat (which can cause upset). 

 

Bill


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#14
Ashley K

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hi there, so i got an update form my dad saying my pups stool is pretty runny.. I am thinking I should cut out more of the skin and fat? maybe keep the amount of bone i was feeding the same? any thoughts? 

 

also, how do you estimate how much bone there is an chicken pieces? for example how will i know how much bone to meat there is thighs, drumsticks, or breasts? I'd like to try to stick with the ratios at least until i get a little more comfortable with the diet.. 

 

what is a good organ meat to start with? do i keep it chicken for now?

 

thank you all so much!



#15
naturalfeddogs

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Keep it chicken right now since the poops sound like they are still runny. You want poops good and solid on at least a few different proteins before adding any organs. 

 

What cuts of chicken are you feeding?



#16
Spy Car

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hi there, so i got an update form my dad saying my pups stool is pretty runny.. I am thinking I should cut out more of the skin and fat? maybe keep the amount of bone i was feeding the same? any thoughts? 

 

also, how do you estimate how much bone there is an chicken pieces? for example how will i know how much bone to meat there is thighs, drumsticks, or breasts? I'd like to try to stick with the ratios at least until i get a little more comfortable with the diet.. 

 

what is a good organ meat to start with? do i keep it chicken for now?

 

thank you all so much!

 

You can check the bone content for many pieces in an article in the Pages section on this site:

 

http://preymodelraw....meaty-bones-r15

 

There is comprehensive nutritional information on the USDA website.

 

If the stools are loose, I would reduce the fat/skin for now, and add it back in as things firm up. Save the skin (freeze). Even thighs and drumsticks have about 2.5X the amount of bone that's called for in PMR ratios. One need not hit 10% bone to start, but an ongoing diet of 25% bone would lead to nutritional imbalance.

 

Chicken liver can be added when stools are firm. Start small, work up. I would not mix organs from beef (etc) until you transition to that next protein, as a cautionary measure. This is a conservative approach. 

 

Some adjustment to raw feeding is not unusual. As the pup's system gets used to metabolizing a natural diet things should improve.

 

Bill


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#17
Spy Car

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You will see that Jenny and I have a friendly difference of opinion on when to add organs.

 

We'd agree that you don't want to do so when stools are soft. I'd wait until stools are firm, then start adding in small amounts and increase as stools remain firm.

 

Bill


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#18
Ashley K

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I've been feeding thighs and drumsticks. I started off cutting some skin /fat because it seemed in excess. but I will try to remove majority of skin and fat to see if her stool improves.

 

perhaps i should start feeding boneless in the morning and then bone in at night for some balance?? would that help at all? 



#19
naturalfeddogs

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I would for now continue to remove skin/fat. I would also continue with what you are feeding at the moment, and not add boneless to it. Your poops are still a little runny it sounds like. Have you looked at the packaging to see what the sodium amount is? Too much, being over 75 mg listed. Lower than that is ideal of you can find it. If not, and the loose poops continue, you may want to consider stopping chicken, and start with some turkey necks. But look at the sodium level first in the chicken.


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#20
Spy Car

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I've been feeding thighs and drumsticks. I started off cutting some skin /fat because it seemed in excess. but I will try to remove majority of skin and fat to see if her stool improves.

 

perhaps i should start feeding boneless in the morning and then bone in at night for some balance?? would that help at all? 

 

I wouldn't feed boneless and overly-bones meals separately, if you could feed more balanced ones instead. Otherwise you'd add the potential for distress on both ends.

 

Bill






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