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Newbie"researching Pmr"

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#41
naturalfeddogs

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He won't be deprived of nutrients in the amount of time it takes to transition. Right now, you want to go protein by protein and not add other stuff to the mix. That makes digestive problems more likely. It would take months of feeding only one protein to be lacking nutrients. Once you have gotten through a couple of proteins without issues involving digestion, you can slowly add beef liver in very small amounts if you want.

 

If you go with turkey next, you can use necks or thighs. I find drumsticks are too dense for mine, and after a couple broken teeth I don't use them anymore.

 

If you go with pork, ribs and/or riblets are fine. 

 

Either way, you want to get poops as firm as possible before moving on, so you don't have issues carried over to the next protein. 


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#42
Spy Car

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Wow. So before I can start feeding, organs etc... He has to be having the full on firm stool? I will try pork first since beef is a little more harsh on them... What kind of Pork cuts should i be using? Should I be adding some kind of supplements? I dont want him to be deprived of nutrients for too long.

 

Ordinarily, I'd advise adding in chicken liver while still on chicken for two reasons. One to get the vital nutrients. Two because dogs who get used to eating organs early end to have fewer aversion issues with organs—and organs are not optional.

 

I think I'd do the same in your case. I'd just make the organ pieces quite small and work up. That might mean a very small bit of liver every day if well tolerated.

 

I don't think beef causes any difficulty with most dogs, in fact, more dogs seem to have more problems with pork. I think that's in part because cheap cuts of pork like butt and shoulder are pretty fatty. That fat is a good thing once a dog is fully conditioned to fat burning, but is challenging before the transition is complete.

 

Whatever protein comes next I'd try to include organs from that species in the mix. Just go slowly and build up. Better to serve small amounts every day than big pieces erratically.  I still serve organs daily. Liver one day, and "other" the next.

 

As TRDmom said, the stool need not be "hard" (that isn't the aim) just hopefully firm enough. So neither constipation nor diarrhea.

 

Bill 


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#43
Kananigurl564

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He won't be deprived of nutrients in the amount of time it takes to transition. Right now, you want to go protein by protein and not add other stuff to the mix. That makes digestive problems more likely. It would take months of feeding only one protein to be lacking nutrients. Once you have gotten through a couple of proteins without issues involving digestion, you can slowly add beef liver in very small amounts if you want.

 

If you go with turkey next, you can use necks or thighs. I find drumsticks are too dense for mine, and after a couple broken teeth I don't use them anymore.

 

If you go with pork, ribs and/or riblets are fine. 

 

Either way, you want to get poops as firm as possible before moving on, so you don't have issues carried over to the next protein. 

Thank u!! I will try Pork next, dont have too many Turkey options around here. thank u so much again. My boy had good poop for 2 days so far =)


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#44
naturalfeddogs

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Keep us posted on how things go!


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#45
Spy Car

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Thank u!! I will try Pork next, dont have too many Turkey options around here. thank u so much again. My boy had good poop for 2 days so far =)

 

I would advise trimming boneless pork of most of the fat (freezing it for later use) while continuing to feed bone-in chicken, trying to get closer and closer to 80/10 (meat to bone). Then if stools remain firm start, increasing the pork fat slowly. 

 

Bill


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#46
Kananigurl564

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I would advise trimming boneless pork of most of the fat (freezing it for later use) while continuing to feed bone-in chicken, trying to get closer and closer to 80/10 (meat to bone). Then if stools remain firm start, increasing the pork fat slowly. 

 

Bill

WHAT KIND OF BEEF WOULD CUTS WOULD YOU RECOMMEND? AND DO I GIVE PORK RIBS WITH BONES? THANK U!



#47
naturalfeddogs

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For me, the cheapest beef I can find around here is cheek meat. Mine get a good bit of it.

 

Pork ribs have bones in them, and yes you feed those, if that's what you are asking.


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#48
Spy Car

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Cheek meat isn't so cheap here, as it is starting to get fashionable with "foodies" and is popular with latinos. I'd love to get cheek at a good price. The dog would have to share. 

 

Beef heart is the least expensive beef I get, other than trim, which is in irregular supply from a specialty butcher.

 

Bill


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#49
naturalfeddogs

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I'm sure it does depend on what part of the country you live in, as to the price. Luckily here, its cheap for us.

 

We don't even have beef trim. I wish we did.


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#50
Spy Car

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I'm sure it does depend on what part of the country you live in, as to the price. Luckily here, its cheap for us.

 

We don't even have beef trim. I wish we did.

 

Our trim only comes from a specialty butcher that caters to raw feeders. At various times I've been able to get bison, ostrich, elk, and beef trim. Lately, I've gotten almost desperate as there has been no trim available , and my supply is nearly empty. But 2 cases of beef trim are due Tuesday (fingers crossed).

 

The lesson we know is that local conditions vary for everyone. A big part of raw feeding economically is exploiting local opportunities. Some people know ranchers and hunters, other can raise livestock, others have good Asian and ethnic markets, or some other source of good bits.

 

Bill


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#51
Iorveth

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Thats it. Well and a WHOLE turkey lol!

 

If you can find whole turkeys without a ton of sodium, you could definitely buy whole turkeys. My Xolo just could not get firm poops with chicken when he was a pup and within a couple of days of ditching the chicken completely and switching to turkey, it firmed up and we just left chicken out of his diet. As he's gotten older, we give him chicken scraps, but haven't given him a whole meal of it since he was a pup. I've been thinking about trying a whole chicken meal (he's 3.5 years old now) since he tolerates the scraps so well. 

With the whole turkeys, I just removed the big portion of breast meat and popped off the drumsticks (many dogs seem to dislike the bone in turkey drums) and let him have at the rest of the carcass. The breasts we either cooked up for ourselves, bagged up and froze for boneless meals later in his transition, or fed them to our hound for his boneless meals. We mostly removed the breasts to keep him from giving himself a boneless meal by targeting that easy to eat area. He was only around 10 weeks old so a turkey carcass lasted him a few meals, but it was a good balance of meat and bone since we only removed about 75% of the breast and popped off the drums and it had the added benefit of giving him a mental and physical workout while he figured out the best way to chomp on the mostly whole bird. 

If you don't want to turn him loose with a whole carcass, I believe there is a video on here somewhere about breaking down a whole bird into manageable pieces.

You're in Hawaii... How's your access to fish? I have known a couple of dogs (one a Xolo and one a Heinz 57) who have been allergic to what seems like everything, but were able to find success with a fish based diet. Here in the lower 48, mackerel and sardines are popular. Mackerel becomes easy for me to get here on the coastal side of Washington because it's often used as crab bait this time of year, but we buy cases of sardines from California too. You do have to do some educating on fish because certain species and certain types like salmon from the Pacific Northwest and milkfish from the Philippines (I think that's where milkfish are from) can carry parasites or microorganisms that live in those parasites that can be fatal to dogs, but it's no different than educating yourself on different kinds of mammals (bears and wild boars, for example). 


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#52
Kananigurl564

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If you can find whole turkeys without a ton of sodium, you could definitely buy whole turkeys. My Xolo just could not get firm poops with chicken when he was a pup and within a couple of days of ditching the chicken completely and switching to turkey, it firmed up and we just left chicken out of his diet. As he's gotten older, we give him chicken scraps, but haven't given him a whole meal of it since he was a pup. I've been thinking about trying a whole chicken meal (he's 3.5 years old now) since he tolerates the scraps so well. 

With the whole turkeys, I just removed the big portion of breast meat and popped off the drumsticks (many dogs seem to dislike the bone in turkey drums) and let him have at the rest of the carcass. The breasts we either cooked up for ourselves, bagged up and froze for boneless meals later in his transition, or fed them to our hound for his boneless meals. We mostly removed the breasts to keep him from giving himself a boneless meal by targeting that easy to eat area. He was only around 10 weeks old so a turkey carcass lasted him a few meals, but it was a good balance of meat and bone since we only removed about 75% of the breast and popped off the drums and it had the added benefit of giving him a mental and physical workout while he figured out the best way to chomp on the mostly whole bird. 

If you don't want to turn him loose with a whole carcass, I believe there is a video on here somewhere about breaking down a whole bird into manageable pieces.

You're in Hawaii... How's your access to fish? I have known a couple of dogs (one a Xolo and one a Heinz 57) who have been allergic to what seems like everything, but were able to find success with a fish based diet. Here in the lower 48, mackerel and sardines are popular. Mackerel becomes easy for me to get here on the coastal side of Washington because it's often used as crab bait this time of year, but we buy cases of sardines from California too. You do have to do some educating on fish because certain species and certain types like salmon from the Pacific Northwest and milkfish from the Philippines (I think that's where milkfish are from) can carry parasites or microorganisms that live in those parasites that can be fatal to dogs, but it's no different than educating yourself on different kinds of mammals (bears and wild boars, for example). 

 

Hi, 

Thank u!!!

We have a lot of fish here. But it's mostly like AHI, MAHI. I don't think we have a lot of fresh water fish. Which i hear is a lot safer for them. We have a lot of can sardines and stuff... but I'm still hunting for fresh.

 

my boy is on week 2 off chicken and has finally been steady on it, He's super sensitve.

I'm going to start him on either beef or pork... Depends which one I can find cheaper here. But most likely Im gonna keep him on chicken based diet, since it's cheapest.



#53
Kananigurl564

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Hi, 

So far been going well. Poop has been consistent! YAY!!! I just started him on Pork ribs on Monday, poop has been still firm and good. I can't wait for the future mixtures of organs, etc... I will take it slow with those after i transition through all proteins. 

 

Question about the FISH, do I have to transition him through that also? Or can I just add it later when he starts have full meals (Organs and Meat). 

 

I really appreciate everyones help so far! U guys have been AWESOME!!!! 


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#54
naturalfeddogs

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Fish can be added pretty much anytime, but usually is around the turkey/pork area. I don't bother with fish, because we can't get any beneficial oily types around here. About all have is farmed catfish, and its useless. 

 

When you feed fish, as I think was mentioned somewhere earlier, you want to feed wild caught, oily types. Its the oils that are really the point of feeding fish. BUT, with that said, don't feed any wild caught salmon or related types from the pacific northwest. You risk salmon poisoning which can be fatal to a dog. Or at the very least, make them very sick. I just give fish oil capsules and am done with it.


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#55
Spy Car

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I have a contrarian position with regards to delaying organs. I think it is a bad idea of two fronts. One the nutrients from organs are critical nutritionally. Two delaying organs often causes dogs to become picky about eating them, and developing an aversion would set one up for a life-long struggle with the dog. Since feeding organs over the long-term is NOT optional, best to set ones self up for success by starting early (but building up slowly).

With fish, I feed thigs like mackerel, sardines, anchovies, pike, and other oily cold water fish. As Jenny said, no raw Salmon/Trout from the Pacific Nothwest.

It seems wise to space out feeding (meaning don't feed daily) as many fish contain a Vitamin B6 blocker called Thaimiase that in extreme cases (like the exclusive feeding of high-thaminase fish) has caused issues. Thaminase is very short lived. As a precaution I do not feed fish daily.

Bill
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#56
Kananigurl564

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Fish can be added pretty much anytime, but usually is around the turkey/pork area. I don't bother with fish, because we can't get any beneficial oily types around here. About all have is farmed catfish, and its useless. 

 

When you feed fish, as I think was mentioned somewhere earlier, you want to feed wild caught, oily types. Its the oils that are really the point of feeding fish. BUT, with that said, don't feed any wild caught salmon or related types from the pacific northwest. You risk salmon poisoning which can be fatal to a dog. Or at the very least, make them very sick. I just give fish oil capsules and am done with it.

Thank u!!!! Definitely wont be feeding any raw Salmon... Noted. 



#57
Kananigurl564

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I have a contrarian position with regards to delaying organs. I think it is a bad idea of two fronts. One the nutrients from organs are critical nutritionally. Two delaying organs often causes dogs to become picky about eating them, and developing an aversion would set one up for a life-long struggle with the dog. Since feeding organs over the long-term is NOT optional, best to set ones self up for success by starting early (but building up slowly).

With fish, I feed thigs like mackerel, sardines, anchovies, pike, and other oily cold water fish. As Jenny said, no raw Salmon/Trout from the Pacific Nothwest.

It seems wise to space out feeding (meaning don't feed daily) as many fish contain a Vitamin B6 blocker called Thaimiase that in extreme cases (like the exclusive feeding of high-thaminase fish) has caused issues. Thaminase is very short lived. As a precaution I do not feed fish daily.

Bill

Hi Bill. 

Do you feed can type sardines, anchovies, etc?

 

In my research I have read the 80% meat 10% bone % 5% organs... So can i wean my boy off of whole chicken quarters and mix in slowly chicken gizzards since that should make up the 80% meat? 



#58
naturalfeddogs

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Keep on with chicken even when you move on to the next protein, just add the new protein with it. It is a good idea, if you want to add some organ in, keep some bone with it, to keep poops firm. Organs are rich, and its easy to end up with cannon butt otherwise. I always give bone toine with organs


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#59
Kananigurl564

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Keep on with chicken even when you move on to the next protein, just add the new protein with it. It is a good idea, if you want to add some organ in, keep some bone with it, to keep poops firm. Organs are rich, and its easy to end up with cannon butt otherwise. I always give bone toine with organs

Thank u! Today my boy threw up all his food, Should I be worried? I just started the pork protein on Mon. Meal incl. 1 chicken quarter no skin, and 1 strip of the pork ribs. My bf said he was done with his meal, and then just threw it all up. I will try another of the same meal tomorrow... I hope he jus chewed too fast and that was what made him throw it up... he seems fine now. Just really worried now...



#60
naturalfeddogs

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He may have eaten too fast. Mine will do that also sometimes, and when they do I just don't worry about it and give them the chance to re eat it again. Sometimes they will, as gross as that sounds. It could also be that he ate too much at once.

 

Since you are giving pork ribs, try giving a boneless chicken breast, instead of the quarter. He's getting bone in the pork, and adding something boneless will be good for more meat, and not quite as big as a breast. Raw is a balancing act, and it could be just a little too much at once (as well as eating too fast). 


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