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Major Regurgitation


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#1
XenaXander

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Hi everyone,
I'm worried about Sable. She ate her chicken backs this evening around 530 with gusto. But at around
10pm she walked out into the living room and puked it ALL up. I noticed just before she let loose that her stomach seemed very round and bloated. After throwing it up she ate about half of it again. I'd read that this was ok for them to do but I tell you it was not an easy thing to watch. The boyfriend had to leave the room. Anyway, I cleaned up the rest and she went back to bed.
Well, it's a couple hours later and she just threw up the rest of it. There's no warning noises, no whining, just ...puke. She definitely is not acting like she feels good. She wouldn't take her nighttime treat when we all went to bed. She wags her tail when you pet her but doesn't really move at all.
I'm hoping she just had a bad episode and will be better by morning but I wanted to at least mention this to the experts out there in case you have any advice.
She's been on PMR for about 6 weeks and other than the major squirts she's been doing great. But we've been unable to get off the chicken backs because of those squirts. Everytime I'd switch to chicken quarters or drumsticks both dogs would have runny diarrhea. So back to the chicken backs to firm up the stools. I'd say they've been on backs for about 7-9 days straight now and the stools are firming up again.
Is it too much bone? I'm worried maybe she's obstructed. Or OD'ed on chicken backs? They get organic pasture-raised chicken, so I know the quality is good.
Thanks for your help, everyone!

#2
XenaXander

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Welp, I just let Remy out and he had the squirts again. So I don't know what's going on. There are some solid white stools out there but lots of squirt marks. I'm not home during the day so the only time I witness what comes out is these 1AM "Mom I gotta go NOW" potty breaks.
Other than the squirts he's been acting normal. Sable was, too, until the puke episodes described above. Help.

#3
naturalfeddogs

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It sounds to me like she may have eaten too much. How big is Sable? How much did you feed her?  My Copper will do the same thing if she eats too much, or too fast.

 

Is the chicken enhanced? That could also be a culprit.You want to look for 75 mg sodium or less. One of ours, Shadow is super synsitve to sodium so we have to be careful.



#4
XenaXander

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Hi Jenny!

Thanks so much for chiming in. First to answer your questions:

At her last vet visit in August, Sable was 48 lbs.  it seemed she needed to lose a couple more to be at her ideal weight (judging by her waist/ribs) so I've been feeding her as if she's 45 lbs. Although, that was when I first started calculating the food weights, and then so much other stuff has come in and confused me, so I may need to recalculate.  Anyway, she is 10 years old so I calculated on the lower end of the percentage scale because her activity is low.  I've been aiming to give her just under a lb of food a day.  Admittedly, she's probably getting more than that on a pretty regular basis because she always acts like she's starving.  So I've been watching her waist more than really measuring her food to under a pound.  But last night she actually got 1.4 lbs because this was two chicken backs.  One was way too small, and since the dang things were frozen I couldn't cut them in half.  I need to rethink how I thaw their food because putting it in the fridge takes days, even for a small amount!  I dislike giving it to them frozen but they are always starving and about to collapse (you know the dramatics!) if I ask them to wait for the chicken to thaw.  I guess I worry they get brain freeze (like I do when I eat something cold) or that the frozen chuncks wouldn't sit well in their tummies.  

 

As far as whether or not the chicken is enhanced, I'm pretty sure it isn't, because it's organic, air chilled, level 4 chicken from Whole Foods.  Since I'm a nearly life-long strict vegetarian and animal lover it's impossible for me to buy meat that was raised on a factory farm, knowing how abused it was.  I refuse to support that industry.  So the dogs get some pretty "happy chickens".  The packaging doesn't say the chicken is enhanced (which I guess would make it really happy! :)) but then again, I'm finding it harder and harder to believe labels these days.  :(  But I've been thinking that I should maybe remove the skin, at least for a little while.  I understand that is pretty rich?  And there seemed to be a lot of it in the detritus of her vomit.  

 

To really add to my alarm, though, she went out this morning and strained and strained and nothing came out.  She's exhibiting the classic signs of obstruction that her brother showed several years ago:  throwing up her food, not eating anymore food (she refused treats last night and this morning) and now constipation.  I'm REALLY hoping that there's two things going on here, that she ate too much which caused the puking, and that all the bone in the chicken is finally catching up with her bowels and she is just constipated.  But with our luck... :(  

Brad is going to watch her like a hawk today, take notes on her mood, and her outside sessions.  Other than watching her I'm not sure what else to do, until it gets dire enough to make a vet visit.



#5
GimMom

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First, if they're having squirts, definitely remove skin and fat until their guts get under control, and then slowly reintroduce them in small amounts. Don't worry about food being completely thawed, if it's partially frozen my dog will still eat it. If you need a quick thaw, just fill a container with hot water and set the chicken (I leave mine bagged) in it until it feels reasonably thawed. It only takes about 5 minutes in hot water to partially thaw a back for me, and then Gimli happily destroys it.

And maybe start out feeding her 1-1.5% of her weight until she's showing improvement. You can always adjust her portions if it's too high or low, but while she has upset, it's probably best to aim low for a bit.

Gimli still has big regurgitations, especially if he tries to down a turkey neck too fast. He's also had middle of the night barfs, which he also eats right back up. When he was getting used to not constantly being stuffed after meals (kibble is wonderful like that....not), he had the yellow, bile hunger pukes. You can try feeding meals closer together and then gradually expanding the time between meals to deal with that. I could only feed morning and night since both my hubby and I work all day. He got used to not having the full stomach all day after a meal and the hunger pukes disappeared. If you're feeding say 1.5% of 45lbs, you'd feed .67 lbs a day. Which is close to what Gimli gets, he is about 42lbs and gets .63lbs a day, or 10-11oz of food split in 2-3 meals. When I first started, I gave him a back in the morning, skin and fat removed, and then two drumsticks, skin and fat removed for dinner. And if it is enhanced meat, you can soak that in water for a bit and then serve.


Is she the one who swallowed a whole beef bone? Because if she's having issues defecating, it COULD be. If it's too much bone, start adding small pieces, like almond size, of muscle meat back in and gradually increase it.

I hope any of this helps. I know raw feeding is a daunting exercise to take on, but once you get the hang of it, it's quite fun!

This is just my experience, if anyone sees anything wrong with my post (Nat :P) please correct me!

#6
GimMom

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First, if they're having squirts, definitely remove skin and fat until their guts get under control, and then slowly reintroduce them in small amounts. Don't worry about food being completely thawed, if it's partially frozen my dog will still eat it. If you need a quick thaw, just fill a container with hot water and set the chicken (I leave mine bagged) in it until it feels reasonably thawed. It only takes about 5 minutes in hot water to partially thaw a back for me, and then Gimli happily destroys it.

And maybe start out feeding her 1-1.5% of her weight until she's showing improvement. You can always adjust her portions if it's too high or low, but while she has upset, it's probably best to aim low for a bit.

Gimli still has big regurgitations, especially if he tries to down a turkey neck too fast. He's also had middle of the night barfs, which he also eats right back up. When he was getting used to not constantly being stuffed after meals (kibble is wonderful like that....not), he had the yellow, bile hunger pukes. You can try feeding meals closer together and then gradually expanding the time between meals to deal with that. I could only feed morning and night since both my hubby and I work all day. He got used to not having the full stomach all day after a meal and the hunger pukes disappeared. If you're feeding say 1.5% of 45lbs, you'd feed .67 lbs a day. Which is close to what Gimli gets, he is about 42lbs and gets .63lbs a day, or 10-11oz of food split in 2-3 meals. When I first started, I gave him a back in the morning, skin and fat removed, and then two drumsticks, skin and fat removed for dinner. And if it is enhanced meat, you can soak that in water for a bit and then serve.


Is she the one who swallowed a whole beef bone? Because if she's having issues defecating, it COULD be. If it's too much bone, start adding small pieces, like almond size, of muscle meat back in and gradually increase it.

I hope any of this helps. I know raw feeding is a daunting exercise to take on, but once you get the hang of it, it's quite fun!

This is just my experience, if anyone sees anything wrong with my post (Nat :P) please correct me!

#7
XenaXander

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Thank you, GimMom!  Yes, raw is actually quite stressful right at this point, for sure!  

 

Wow, thanks for remembering one of my charges swallowed a whole beef bone!  That wasn't Sable, though, that was Remy.  Sable is pretty dainty when she eats, but even so, I still watch them both like a hawk every time they eat.  And I think Remy is ok becuase its been a few weeks and he's been acting like his usual self (although I'm still having trouble getting their poops to even out).  But he doesn't appear to have a blockage.  

 

I will remove the skin from the chicken backs (and the drumsticks I've got in the freezer) for the next few feedings and keep a close eye on their hind ends, then start adding back in.  And thanks for the hint on thawing the meat and letting me know it's ok if its frozen.

 

Neither one of the dogs has had any problem with "hunger pukes".  At present we only feed them once a day (at around 5:15, when I get home from work).  They get a small treat in the morning and then one at bedtime.  

 

Also, the conversion to ounces is a HUGE help.  I'm terrible with numbers and math, so I feel better knowing I have been feeding Sable sufficient amounts.  

 

I've asked for an update at home but haven't gotten a reply, yet, but I imagine things are the same as this morning:  no appetite, no energy, no poopy.  I'll keep you all posted.  Thank you!



#8
GimMom

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You can call me Deb, and no problem! Just remember that raw fed dogs poop less, too. Gimli has maybe 1-2 stools a day, so don't panic yet. There was one day where he ate what I thought was a lot, and still only pooped once, and that was late in the evening. This is going from sometimes SIX poops in one day when we were doing kibble. There's less junky processed crap for them to process, hence the smaller and less frequent poops.

Once they're having normal poops, for at least a week or two, then you can move on to the next protein, turkey (turkey necks are best because they clean the teeth really well, probably the best raw meaty bone for that), and there's enough bone and meat.


And I was having panic attacks over portioning until I broke it down like that. It makes it easier to divide your portions to freeze. I usually freeze a whole bunch, and take out the meals the day before and thaw for the next day. If they're not completely thawed, that's when I dunk them in hot water, but as long as they're not totally frozen, most dogs can and will eat partially frozen just fine. Backs usually weigh between 2-3 ounces, and drumsticks are about 2 oz, so that right there is around .67 lbs. I was weighing it all and once I got a feel for how much stuff weighed, I just eyeballed it and went from there.


Glad remy is okay, too! RMB's can cause heart attacks in fur moms sometimes. ;) :P
Keep us updated and don't hesitate to pick our brains!

#9
Prey Model Raw

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Is Sable drooling and acting lethargic? Those are the two signs that something is really not right in the GI system. 

 

Keep us posted on how things go....


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#10
XenaXander

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Here's a quick update on Sable.  When I got home last night from work she was waiting by her food bowl, all tail waggy.  She normally comes to greet me but she's still feeling under the weather.  I think there may be some pain going on in her back, because she won't raise her head up all the way.  She kind of twists it to the side to look up at you.  Anyway, that's another issue and I'll definitely address that, too.  

 

She didn't appear overly hungry, in fact, she went and laid down in another room while I was getting their dinner ready (normally she's underfoot).  I called and she did come out, and she did eat a 4 oz drumstick and lick the bowl clean.  She didn't ask for more, so we decided to watch her and if she came out and licked the bowl again we'd feed her more.  Well, she stayed in the room all evening, went out and went potty (no poop yet) and then politely accepted her night-night treat at bedtime.  

 

This morning we woke up to no throw up (that was a relief) and Sable went out and pottied (still only pee, though).  She's been spending more time in the other bedroom, in the area our cat would hang out in when he was alive.  He died in July (he was 18!) and Sable mourned for him.  She was in his spot when I left for work.  She did sit up in anticipation for her morning treat, and she ate two of them (they are super tiny) but she wouldn't leave the room.  

 

Natalie, she doesn't really seem lethargic (her tail goes a zillion miles a minute) but she's definitely not running around and playing.  She's not drooling, either.  She seems to be feeling a little better today for sure.  I'll just keep offering food and praying for poop!

 

And speaking of poop - Deb!  SIX poops in one day??  I shudder!  Even on Kirkland brand kibble my two only pooped 2 - 3 times a day.  Although Remy's were enormous.  And super smelly.  *gag*.  When he has actual poop instead of squirts they are much smaller and waaay less smelly!  My sister's yellow lab was on Kirkland brand and he was like your Gimli - 6 or  more poops every single day.  They switched him to something else and his frequency went down.  Now I'd like to convince them to switch to raw but with 3 small children and trying to start up a new small business, I doubt I'll get very far.  But maybe some day.  :)  



#11
GimMom

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Yeah, it was brutal, We were doing grain free limited diet b.s, the Natural Balance Venison and Sweet potato. He got two walks a day, so each walk was about 3, usually two. First one is firm-ish, second is softer, third is pure squish, And they STUNK. He still has the odd smelly turd now and then, but mostly the smell doesn't hit me like a Mack truck the way it used to when I scooped. 

 

I'm now working on the next protein next week, he's done well with pork, so I'm going for some beef heart and salmon heads. The heads are going to freak me the hell out, but that's what I do for my dog. *gag*



#12
XenaXander

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Oh agh guh gulp - fish heads?!  I can't even look at the chicken feet they have at Whole Foods without getting the willies.  Brad isn't even a vegetarian and he expressly stated, "I can't handle chicken feet" when I  offered him a bag to put in the shopping cart.  Wuss.  :)

 

I have good news!  Sable seems to be her old self again.  I came home to a white wiggle butt, and was expressly hurried along to "make that darn dinner, mom!" when I dared go to the bathroom first.  She also pooped this morning (little brown one)!  

 

So tonight she got a chicken back and a drumstick for dinner.  She licked her bowl, Remy's bowl, the floor, then her bowl again, the floor, Remy's bowl... you get the picture.  So I think she's going to be okay!  Thank you thank you THANK YOU for helping me keep my head during this stressful time!  

 

I'm hoping at some point we can move on to the next protein (although Whole Foods doesn't sell turkey necks/wings, etc and finding organic pasture-raised sources are not easy for turkey,for some reason, but maybe getting close to Thanksgiving is good timing) otherwise my poor pups are going to OD on chicken!



#13
lauren43

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I wouldn't be surprised if that was way too much food for her. At the beginning less is more. My 50lber was eating 1lb per day for quite some time. Now at 63lbs he eats anywhere from 1-2lbs per day but he has a high metabolism. Of course what your dog will eat when fully transitions may be completely different (more or less) but you have to get a feel for what works, lots of trial and error at the beginning.

Taking off the skin and fat helps too, I've never had to do this but when you have upsets it's a go to for issues.
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#14
GimMom

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^ This is true, Lauren. I find whenever Gimli gets too much food, he has run and mucous. He's not a very active dog, so feeding him a little less than 3/4 of a pound a day is usually the way I keep that under control. He had a soft stool last night because I think Shane gave him a bigger turkey neck last night for dinner ( I worked a 10hr shift unexpectedly last night and he had to do dinner for me), so he was a bit off. But I gave him a back today plus an enzyme and slippery elm, hoping he has a good poop later.

XenaXander, do you have any local asian supermarkets? Those usually sell cheaper meat. It's where I get mine in Toronto. I'm still researching other meat resources, you can never have too many. Sometimes you can buy cheap utility turkeys and break them down. The fish heads are going to take some getting used to. The same supplier I talk to also is looking to start a variety pack of fish, like salmon, mackerel, sardines and one other fish I forgot, so I might get that too. I need a new freakin' freezer, running out of room for it all in my little fridge freezer. I haven't tried chicken feet, but it may buy a bag for treats.

#15
Prey Model Raw

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Glad to hear that Sable is back to her normal self again :)

 

Thanksgiving time is the best time to find deals on turkey. Have you looked into wholesale meat distributors or butchers in your area? 



#16
GimMom

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I'm going downtown tomorrow to the Chinese market to check out what they have. If I can get a whole turkey and some necks for cheap, I'm going for it. I might check my other source and see what she sells it for, too



#17
XenaXander

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I have lots of small farms/ranches around me where I can get pasture-raised grass-fed non-abused animals but you have to buy in bulk from them, or go to the farmer's market to get smaller portions.  That would be fine if the farmer's market wasn't smack dab in the middle of my workday!  Buying in bulk can't happen until I buy, to quote Deb, "a new freakin' freezer", to put everything in. :) And a new freezer is pretty far down on the "can buy soon" list.  Sigh.  There is a local butcher that I need to visit who may have the quality of meats I'm looking for, but their hours are too close to my office hours, so I need to visit them on a weekend.  And I always forget because there is so much else going on, or I remember after they've closed!  

 

And trial and error is definitely the case here.  I've been feeding Sable less food, but then yesterday morning she threw up, what looked like the "hunger pukes" you've all mentioned before.  Just runny yellow bile and mucus.  So now I think I'm feeding her too little.  I need to get my self together and maybe start doing a morning and evening feed.  But she doesn't appear to be hungry in the morning.  In fact, she still seems a tad bit under the weather.  This morning she got up, went potty, then went back to bed.  To be honest, that's what I wanted to do, too! 

~ Robin



#18
henrymichael

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"hunger puke" is acid reflux. My Redbone Coonhound had it all the time. He was the most intense and driven animal I'd ever seen... on 24/7. I hunted him and he just never got enough. It's important to keep something in the gut. I had to feed him three times a day. Only thing that worked... or Pepcid AC which I only used in really extreme cases... or a bland diet.



#19
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I have lots of small farms/ranches around me where I can get pasture-raised grass-fed non-abused animals but you have to buy in bulk from them, or go to the farmer's market to get smaller portions.  That would be fine if the farmer's market wasn't smack dab in the middle of my workday!  Buying in bulk can't happen until I buy, to quote Deb, "a new freakin' freezer", to put everything in. :) And a new freezer is pretty far down on the "can buy soon" list.  Sigh.  There is a local butcher that I need to visit who may have the quality of meats I'm looking for, but their hours are too close to my office hours, so I need to visit them on a weekend.  And I always forget because there is so much else going on, or I remember after they've closed!  

 

And trial and error is definitely the case here.  I've been feeding Sable less food, but then yesterday morning she threw up, what looked like the "hunger pukes" you've all mentioned before.  Just runny yellow bile and mucus.  So now I think I'm feeding her too little.  I need to get my self together and maybe start doing a morning and evening feed.  But she doesn't appear to be hungry in the morning.  In fact, she still seems a tad bit under the weather.  This morning she got up, went potty, then went back to bed.  To be honest, that's what I wanted to do, too! 

~ Robin

 Have you looked on Craigslist to find freezers? We've got 5 freezers in the garage all of which came from Craigslist.....2 of which were FREE. It's amazing what you can find on there so it's definitely something to give a shot at. Just browse daily or every other day for them in the for sale section or the free section. 



#20
XenaXander

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Ahhhhh, I always forget about trusty Craigslist!  I will definitely have to start perusing that website again, thank you for the reminder!

 

Sable hasn't thrown up since Sunday morning, but somebody has some major gas.  Like gagging until you leave the room kind of gas.  I don't know if it's Remy or Sable, but since Sable's the one with all the intestinal problems lately I can't help but point the finger at her.  Poor puppy.  I am happy to report that this morning she had nice solid poops.  Even though last night she only ate half of one chicken back.  I don't know if she's just tired of chicken, or on one of her "I'm on a diet" kicks she used to do with kibble.  She'd take a bite, run off to another room to eat it, then trot back in to get another bite... in the meantime Remy'd hoovered his down and then sit and whine at Sable's still-full bowl.  Its almost like she was torturing him on purpose. I'd wind up dumping it back in the container.  Last night she did try taking the chicken off to another room but I blocked her.  Then she just left it on the floor after half-heartedly licking it.  She gets finicky sometimes.  

I do have some oxtail slices in the freezer - but those are the wrong protein so I don't want to mess with her digestion.  I'll try chicken drumsticks tonight since she has solid stools right now.  






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