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Hello From Alabama


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#1
malinois owned

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Just getting started with PMR diet. Any advice on my unique situation from experienced people would be great! My name is Shannon. I have 1 Belgian Malinois, (male, 8 months old) "Apollo". He is my service dog. I have been training him myself and he does a great job! I'm a disabled Veteran, I served in the U. S Army. When Apollo came home I was feeding him Nutro. I had feed it to my dogs for years and never had any problems with it. Within a week of  Apollo coming home he started to have stomach problems (diarrhea, and vomiting). We did not realize how sick he was until after the fact. After the initial vet visit he seemed to be doing better, only to get sick again a few weeks later. Long story short, the first few months were up and down. It was all this and learning how many Malinois had sensitive tummies, that we began our search for "a higher quality diet" After lots of research (vets, trainers, internet forums, and dog food labels) we found Orijen. We loved it and our dogs loved it too! We also have 1 Jack Russell Terrier (male, 2 years old) "Maverick, and I Miniature Schnauzer (male, 1 year old) Max. The problem is the price! Our dogs have been on Orijen for about 6 months now. Their coats are shiny and healthy they have lots of energy, their teeth are nice and clean, stools are good, the whole nine yards. However, we spend on average $195.00 a month on kibble. I first learned about the raw food diet probably 6 months ago when all this started. I liked the idea of the raw food diet. I just didn't feel I knew enough about it to make the switch. Here it is 6 months later. I'm finally ready! I have purchased 40 lbs of whole chicken and we plan to buy a freezer in the near future. We have 3 very different dogs. They all require different amounts of food and I presume it would be best to feed different parts of the bird. Obviously my Schnauzer can't eat what my Malinois can. Also, there are safety concerns. Do I need to freeze the meat a certain amount of time before I feed my dogs to kill all bacteria? I read fish had to be frozen 6 weeks first. I welcome any advice anyone can give. I look forward to getting to know all of you and learning more about the PMR diet. 


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#2
naturalfeddogs

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Welcome from a fellow Alabamian! I started raw about five or so years ago. My dogs had problems on kibble as well, I just didn't realize it until after getting a couple of weeks into raw. Tons of great help here, step by step all the way.

#3
Prey Model Raw

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Welcome!

Yep, cut the chicken up into parts: wings, legs, back, breast bone, etc. Give the bigger pieces to the bigger dog and the smaller pieces to the smaller dogs. Generally speaking you'll feed them all 1-3% of their ideal weight per day.

If you tell me how much each of them weighs I can help determine how much to feed each one.

Most if not all commercially available meats are previously frozen- so freezing isn't really necessary. Wild caught fish, meat etc should be frozen first before feeding.

#4
malinois owned

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Apollo, my Malinois weighs 64 lbs and still growing. I estimate he will top out at around 75 lbs/80 lbs.  Maverick, my Jack Russell weighs 21 lbs and he's over weight. He should be between 14 lbs and 18 lbs. I would be happy if I could get him to around 16 lbs. Max my Schnauzer is 8 lbs. 



#5
malinois owned

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Thank you all so much for the quick replies!



#6
malinois owned

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Welcome from a fellow Alabamian! I started raw about five or so years ago. My dogs had problems on kibble as well, I just didn't realize it until after getting a couple of weeks into raw. Tons of great help here, step by step all the way.

What part of Alabama are you from? Oh, Talladega I see. I guess I wasn't paying attention.



#7
malinois owned

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Welcome!

Yep, cut the chicken up into parts: wings, legs, back, breast bone, etc. Give the bigger pieces to the bigger dog and the smaller pieces to the smaller dogs. Generally speaking you'll feed them all 1-3% of their ideal weight per day.

If you tell me how much each of them weighs I can help determine how much to feed each one.

Most if not all commercially available meats are previously frozen- so freezing isn't really necessary. Wild caught fish, meat etc should be frozen first before feeding.

So, I can just feed the meat to my dogs the way it is when I bring it home from the store? There are no safety concerns of bacteria and such? What about e-coli and salmonella?



#8
Prey Model Raw

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Apollo, my Malinois weighs 64 lbs and still growing. I estimate he will top out at around 75 lbs/80 lbs.  Maverick, my Jack Russell weighs 21 lbs and he's over weight. He should be between 14 lbs and 18 lbs. I would be happy if I could get him to around 16 lbs. Max my Schnauzer is 8 lbs. 

 

That helps! I would start out feeding everyone 1% of their ideal weight per day, and add food in as needed or vice versa. It's best to start out on the lean end and work your way up since too much food can cause digestive upset. Here are the numbers:

 

APOLLO

 

64 X 0.01 = 0.64 pounds (so like 2/3 to 3/4 pound)

 

Most likely you'll be feeding a lot more than that since Apollo is still growing.

 

MAVERICK

 

14 X 0.01 = 0.14 (so like 1/8 to a 1/4 pound)

 

I'm using 14 as his "ideal" weight and not his current weight because we want him to lose weight. 

 

MAX

 

8 X 0.01 = 0.08 (this isn't a lot of meat....so I would go with 1/8 to a 1/4 pound)

 

 

 

 

So, I can just feed the meat to my dogs the way it is when I bring it home from the store? There are no safety concerns of bacteria and such? What about e-coli and salmonella?

 

I feed dogs the meat straight from the store all the time. Freezing wont necessarily get rid of harmful bacteria. They're just there. The beauty of a dog's digestive system is that it's built and capable of dealing with harmful pathogens like these. Their digestive system is short, compared to ours, so the bad bacteria don't have time to cause damage (unless your pet is sick or immune compromised). A dog's stomach acid is also very acidic so as to kill off most all bacteria before food moves to the intestines. 



#9
malinois owned

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Thanks so much! That helps a lot!


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#10
swolek

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Welcome! :)



#11
huntersbow2010

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Welcome! My husband and I are new to this as week! So glad to have made the change! How are they all doing? I'm on day 5 and we are doing pretty well. Had a few hiccups but got some great advise and doing fantastic now!!! Good luck!
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#12
Jordann

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My boys have been on raw almost a month, and they handle meat from the store like champs! They have even gotten stuff that we wouldn't eat, and they handled it like champs. Their digestive systems are amazing. :)

Welcome!

#13
malinois owned

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So far, so good! I started Apollo on raw three days ago. He's doing great! To my surprise he hasn't had any problems. I decided to switch one dog at a time, so I could keep a closer eye on each one individually. On the first day I feed chicken back and he loved it! I expected him to look at me like "what do you want me to do with this". Nope! He chomped it down like he had been doing it all his life. The next day I feed organ meat (lungs,liver). He wasn't so fond of it but he ate it. I think he only did so because my other dog Maverick was staring, wanting his dinner. Maverick is sooo envious. He wants "the real stuff too". 

Maybe it's just me. But it sure seems like eating raw has increased his prey drive considerably. Has anyone else had this experience? I do worry about bacteria like salmonella and e-coli, not making the dogs sick but making us sick. I have been making sure to wash his bowl after every meal with anti-bacterial soap. Also we always mop the floor with bleach after every meal. I put the meat in his bowl but he always drags it out. Is there any concern about the dog walking on the floor and then transferring the bacteria to us or our other dogs?



#14
huntersbow2010

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I'm sure that is possible but they are pretty good about cleaning up themselves. My boys lick their paws really well after eating, I was feeding in the kitchen as well but my Aussi kept taking it to the living room so now I feed outside.... No more mopping:)) (well not twice a day anymore!) the best thing is to just make sure you and your family wash hands before eating. I also don't allow the dogs to lick my son(give kisses) for at least 30min after a meal.

#15
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Hold off feeding organs again into you're introduced all the proteins you have available, so at least 6-8 weeks from now.

Feed outside so him dragging food around becomes a non issue. It's normal for them to take their meaty bones out of the bowl to eat and chew and tear.

It's not prey drive that's escalated. It's his drive to protect his food that has changed. Raw food is more valuable than kibble. So it's normal for dogs to become more protective of it. That in no way makes it ok for a dog to be food aggressive toward humans though. Toward other dogs? In my book that's ok unless it goes over the top. Giving warning growls and postures is fine, full on attacks are not fine.
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#16
malinois owned

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He has been more protective about his food and showed aggression toward my JRT but not to us. He growls, postures, and makes direct eye contact also but no full blown attacks. He's been trained to always submit to me. I can take anything away from him.

 

The reason I say his prey drive seems to have increased is because he has been more intense during bite-work, and tug games. It's a good thing! Don't  get me wrong. I just wandered if it had anything to do with his new diet. 

 

The thing about feeding outside is he's being poison trained. He's learning to never eat off the ground or floor. I know he does drag his food out of the bowl and into the floor, but it comes from my hand and out of his bowl so, that's a little different. Any suggestions?

 

So far, other than the one time I feed the organ meat he's only had backs and leg quarters. Is that ok? How long before I can feed more meat like breast? Oh, and I did feed him the neck bone the day he got the organ meat. Is that ok?



#17
huntersbow2010

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Well that's a little different situation. But when I feed my boys out side I make them sit and then hand it to them. Usually never hits the ground after that. If you don't want to do outside at all maybe invest in some "dog towels" and use those put his bowl on it and train him to eat at the towel? Hope that helps!

#18
malinois owned

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Thanks for the tip. I might do that.


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#19
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Maybe have a special mat or area that he's allowed to eat in, drag his food around on the ground, etc that is outside. He will know the difference between the food you hand him for meals and poison training methods because you HAND him the food directly. At least I don't think it'll interfere with his training if he has a specific spot outside.

It's not unheard of to have increased drive all around when you feed them real food. It livens them in many ways, not just physical health. A lot of it is mental.

The organ meat fed with boney meals is fine- but I would hold off giving any more until you're done with the transition. Slowly phase in a few more "core" proteins like turkey, beef, pork and lamb first before adding organs back in. If you give organs now AND add in other proteins I think you'll end up in trouble. I have seen it so, so many times in the past five years.

#20
malinois owned

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Ok, thanks! That makes sense. I kind of thought about it after I posted that question about the poison  training. I pretty much had the same thought. If it comes from my hand and out of his bowl, etc.... I don't see why it would be any different, than say in the kitchen. When I fed him today I put a towel down under his bowl. It worked well. I may try feeding outside next time. 

 

What is the reason behind waiting to feed organ meats, exactly? I haven't feed organs again, just curious. What about neck bone? Is it o.k to feed neck bone at this time? How long should I wait before introducing meatier portions like breast?

 

He certainly seems...."happier". I guess? He seems like he just feels better. Maybe that's the best way to put it. It seems like he has a more positive energy. His whole demeanor seems more positive and energetic. It's not just his prey drive but generally speaking. 

 

I really appreciate all your help. You've been a consistent source of helpful information. 






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